Both bass and trout are capable of the same gentle "sip". In my years fishing for both and have experianced undetectable bites by both species. On top of that I generaly think that higher modulus blanks be it factory or custom seem to be more sensitive. I absolutely do NOT believe that a $30 blank can be built to be as sensitive as a higher end factory rod. Unless of coarse the factory rod is hidiously overpriced. Just figured I'd toss in my .02 cents. Lets face it guys building a custom rod is not exactly reinventing the wheel.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2010 10:28PM by Larry Damore.

I have built 3 different bass fisherman "worm/jig" rods with a Batson RX7 MB843 and RX8 MB843. Two rod sets "Mag Bass". I can say all three men feel the RX8 is more sensitive. BUT, they switched to florocarbon in lieu of mono. Also, one is a "buddy tournament" fishermen. His partner will pick up his RX8 but will not touch the RX7.

I built myself a RX7 2 years ago. This year I started using the RX8. Both MB843 specs. I too went to florocarbon. I would not call it sensitivity has much as being able to "read" the line. Mono floats, floro sinks, less drag in the water. Maybe floro has a better "strike" transfer than mono. Probably no argument here??? I built a rod for myself, RX8 SB843 to fish shaky heads. All line read and "sense", not so much strike detection. Love the rod.

I know some of us do not have the feel in our fingers and hands as others. That can change as we get older. One of the men listed above has that problem. I've fished with him since he was 16. I know he has a "feeling" issue. He uses 3/4 oz jigs just so he can "feel". It may be in his head.

Peter Sprague Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sensitivity is not a myth! Some rods are more
> sensitive than others and you should be able to
> build a custom rod that is more sensitive than any
> factory built rod.

Curious why you think this is true (custom more sensitive)? Despite what you think of "factory" rods, the industry is viciously competitive, and these companies look for any edge in the market they can gain. Why do you think factories can not build as sensitive rods as the custom builder?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2010 10:38PM by Larry Damore.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
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> To the contrary, the largest bass I've ever
> caught, smallmouth or largemouth, took the
> lure/fly extremely softly. In fact, you'll find
> that 9 times out of 10, the larger the bass the
> softer the take.
>
> ...............
That's dead on Tom, almost always. I was dropshot fishing two weeks ago and catching LM and white perch in 78 feet of water on the bottom. They were all schooled and feeding together the were thumping it hard, you could feel the bite with gloves on no problem. This past weekend they were at the same depth 70 - 80 feet but you could never feel the bite you had to pull the bait off the bottom frequently and you would have a good fish. You can always call it before you see it, when your jig just swims off after you skip it under a dock or beside a tree, you know its a good fish before you set the hook and you better be watching your line because you wont feel the bite. Sometimes sensitivity is a issue, and sometimes it never factors. But I still want the most sensitive rod I can get for when it does.

I have an issue with the feeling in my hands, so I understand this issue. So what I have done is when I fish I try not to tight grip. I just lightly hold on to the rod I can notice a pressure change in the weight as my drift goes over the river bottom free drifting eggs. I also lay my index on the line. In both cases you well feel a change before you well feel the rod change in normal fishing scenarios.

Good Wraps Bob

Some years ago, I tried an experiment with another fisherman. He had a very nice and rather large in-ground swimming pool at his home. I had him stand up top on the edge, blindfolded, while I entered the pool carrying a plastic worm trailing line from his rod and reel outfit. I would let go of the worm and tell him to begin a slow retrieve. Several times during the retrieve I would swat the worm as hard as I could underwater, usually knocking it several inches off line. At no time did he feel anything. I couldn't believe it.

We repeated the test after swapping positions. I couldn't feel anything either. It disturbed me so much that I removed the blindfold and watched him slap the worm just to make sure he was actually doing so. Nothing. Tried it with several different rods. Nothing. The only way you could feel anything was to actually grab and hold the worm. You had to stop it under tension, not just slap or hit it as it moved through the water.

That was when I decided that the best way to detect strikes was to watch the line relative to the water motion or lack thereof.

I'n not arguing against building the lightest and most sensitive rod possible (see my very first response in this thread) but from a fishing standpoint, detecting strikes is about much more than just what you're able to feel. You'll never feel most fish that take your offering.

.....................

Tom swatting a lure sidewaze is that not differnt than than stopping a lures progression. Actually I think We need to use a differnt word than Sensitivity. Sensitivity to me is when the Doc runs a lite object over your skin to see if you could feel it. In drift fishing you have a bait bouncing along the bottom. You feel the intermediate stops when the lure hits the rocks and when it floats free. If a Ironhead take the bait and does not run with it, but just mouths it, You feel the transition from a bouncing bait to nothing. At this point you know 2 thing ether you have a Steelhead or you are hung up, so you set the hook.

Good Wraps Bob

Bob,

It's completely different, otherwise you could feel when the worm was knocked to the side. You can't. If you don't believe it, rig up the same test and climb into a pool and try it for yourself.

You won't feel anything, regardless of the rod and line you use, unless you actually halt the lure.

..........

In films and in the water I have watched LMB feed by flaring their gills and with considerable force inhaling their prey. If you are an angler I'll bet you have seen the same thing. It's how LMB feed, not all of the time, but apparently much of the time. I have never seen a trout, on film or in the water, slam a nymph like a bass slams a frog, or have I seen a trout strike or inhale a nymph with the force with which a bass often ingests its prey. I'll bet you haven't seen this either.

I'll reject unusual and relatively rare exceptions to the feeding behavior of bass and trout and stand by my preference: Fly rod trout anglers cast nymphs upstream (constantly creating more slack line) to trout whose normal "take" under these circumstances is very delicate. Bass anglers cast baits into slack water to bass whose "take" is relatively much more violent. I have spent a fair amount of time fishing in both circumstances. I'll accept the nymph fisherman's judgment of the "touch sensitivity" of a rod long before I endorse the opinion of bass fisherman working tight lines in slack water. Others are welcome to base their faith and opinion upon exceptions to physics and the feeding strategies of different fish species

Phil,

But you will never feel that. Most times, the bass inhales the prey or lure, and spits it back out with equal force and the angler never feels anything. Glenn Lau documented this in a video he did with Doug Hannon back in the 1970s. They were amazed that the angler never bothered to set the hook. When asked, he would say he didn't feel a thing.

Aggressive strikes by largemouth are the exception, not the rule.

...........

Tom:
I'm quite certain this rejection phenomenon applies at least equally to trout taking nymphs, but this would indicate that detecting both strikes and rejections by trout requires more rod sensitivity than detection of strikes and rejections by bass, even without considering slack lines vs taut lines. My choice of experts to rely upon in this sensitivity issue remains the same - upstream nymph fishermen.

Perhaps I'm missing your point. Are you suggesting that the "sensitivity" of a rod in detecting a "bite" is not a real issue?

I'm an upstream nymph fisherman, mostly. That's my specialty and how I catch most of my fish, trout or bass.

I think it's great to have a rod which is as sensitive as possible, which generally means building it as light as possible. But there is more to detecting strikes than what you can feel through your rod. In fact, until a guy learns how to read line movement, he's going to miss most of the fish that pick up his offering.

The original question had to do with one rod being more sensitive than another based on it being a "high end" commercially produced rod and something custom made on a good but lower priced blank. In most cases we've reached a point where unless one rod is terribly lighter (for the same stiffness) than another, I doubt the human hand can tell much of a difference. As I said, I suspected the difference in what one angler was referring to as "feel" was in fact, something else.

...............

Phil,

Casting upstream and drifting a lure downstream is just as applicable in bass fishing as in trout fishing, and just as applicable in walleye fishing, ... . If it lives in moving water, the most natural presentation is to cast up and bring it back. I've not done any trout fishing, but the only difference I see is that when fly fishing, the angle has the task of mending the line by hand rather than using a reel. Proper mending technique may take more time to master than keeping up with your lure with a reel, but the principle is the same. I can fully respect the time it takes to master the technique with the fly rod, as I'm sure I couldn't pick up the rod and properly mend the line. With that said, I don't see nymphing as any different than using the same principles on casting and spinning gear.

When the current is the only thing keeping the water from freezing, walleye can be as delicate as any bass, crappie (perhaps the most delicate biter that I normally catch), perch, ... that I've caught. The bottom line is that any fish can be as aggressive or passive as they want on the take. They can control the muscles that flare their gills just the same as any other muscle in their body. After all, they don't fully flare their gills to respirate. I just can't buy the argument that an animal that must use its mouth as its only way of catching food can't control how much effort it uses to feed.

I always joke with a buddy "If your lure doesn't feel right, set the hook. A fish ain't got no hands!"

Just what I've gleaned from my limited experiences.

Edit: After rereading, I thought my post sounded a little harsh, but it isn't intended as such, only as a statement of my observations.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2010 06:34PM by Joe Vanfossen.

Very interesting Tom and I love the science you bring to a table mostly loaded with opinions. I trust that you would agree that if you had been able to whack that worm hard enough it would have been noticed. Taken to an extreme there are billfish that do whack a bait first and is certainly noticed.

I've had the pleasure of observing fish eat while diving. The tenative stationary inhaling thing we see on TV only tends to happen when the fish is unsure of what it is confronting. I have seen fish on bed mouth an offering simply to deposit it somewhere else. Strike at the right time and you might hook one but you basically have to see the fish. Now drag that bait or lure into the nest enough times and eventually you will get an anger strike which is again dfferent. Fish that are sure of what is happening generally approach the meal with some speed, make a U-turn, and inhale the meal at the apex of the turn and head away at increased speed. Then there are the ones that will take their time and herd the bait into a ball and then take turns slashing through the school.

Just once I'd like to hear a bass shiner guy take about sensitivity. I may be getting defensive but I get the impression many think it is only a concern for those fishing artificals and then, only for certain fish. The bait fisherman is almost always closer to fishing a slack line. Often his need for sensitivity is to feel the information his live bait is giving him and not to detect the bite directly. A native, wild, non-drugged, preferred live bait beats the best fish finder by a wide margin in letting you know if you are "in the right place at the right time".

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Tom that is what I thought I said! If you take a moving object that is moving in a straight direction and just move it side ways, you well not notice much difference. But if you take the same object and move it towards the direction it is headed you will feel the slack in the line. But that has nothing to do with sensitivity. What you feel is pressure or lack of it. I hope We are now on the same page. Moving something side ways but still allowing it to travel in the same directing, You will not really notice much change until there is a reverse direction or resistance applied

Good Wraps Bob

Russell,

The thing is, I whacked it as hard as possible considering that this is all taking place under water. But I was still able to knock it off path by a half foot or so, if I recall correctly. The guy on the rod end never said anything. I just figured he was a lousy fisherman and that I'd be able to feel it when we reversed positions. The fact that I couldn't, and the fact that I even performed it without any blindfold and watched the worm getting whacked with no feeling of it at all, really unnerved me. It completely eroded my confidence in being able to detect strikes and was the reason I learned to read line versus water speed. (Stopping the worm, however, was a different matter. That you could easily feel even if you just pinched the tail for a split second.)

But I guess we've gotten far off the track of the original poster's question. There is never any disadvantage to building the most sensitive rod possible.

........................

Bob,

No, we didn't find either of those things to be true. Rather than argue about it, I suggest trying it. Be prepared to have your confidence in what you think can feel underwater completely shattered. And this will hold true no matter what rod you use.

..............

Tom I still contend that what I said is correct. As for fly fishermen , why do allot of them use strike indicators on their line when fishing trout or steelhead. I have Steelhead fished for over 50 years I am now 68. I have fished both Spring,Summer, Fall and Winter Steelhead using Egg Roe free drifting near the bottom of the river. An I well tell you if you move th bait side ways and still let it continue to drift down river you will not feel a thing. But it you stop the movement of the bait ether you are hung up or a Ironhead is eating your Roe. What you feel is the difference in line pressure. But to move a lure or bait side ways but let it continue to move in its original direction you well not feel a thing. When you do feel something is when you feel pressure on the line or the lack of it. Remember the old trick of of putting the tip of a rod next to your throat and speaking, you could feel the vibration to the butt of the rod. You can do this while moving the tip side ways or up or down. You can do this with a broom stick. That is why I keep a finger on my line, that vibration well transfer threw the line before it well transfer to the rod. Just my 2 cents nothing more. That is why Steelheading is called the fish of a 1,000 casts before you get your first fish

Good Wraps Bob

Tom I still contend that what I said is correct. As for fly fishermen , why do allot of them use strike indicators on their line when fishing trout or steelhead. I have Steelhead fished for over 50 years I am now 68. I have fished both Spring,Summer, Fall and Winter Steelhead using Egg Roe free drifting near the bottom of the river. An I well tell you if you move th bait side ways and still let it continue to drift down river you will not feel a thing. But it you stop the movement of the bait ether you are hung up or a Ironhead is eating your Roe. What you feel is the difference in line pressure. But to move a lure or bait side ways but let it continue to move in its original direction you well not feel a thing. When you do feel something is when you feel pressure on the line or the lack of it. Remember the old trick of of putting the tip of a rod next to your throat and speaking, you could feel the vibration to the butt of the rod. You can do this while moving the tip side ways or up or down. You can do this with a broom stick. That is why I keep a finger on my line, that vibration well transfer threw the line before it well transfer to the rod. Just my 2 cents nothing more. That is why Steelheading is called the fish of a 1,000 casts before you get your first fish

Good Wraps Bob

On rare occasions you can see your bait disappear into a fish's mouth, or see the flash of a fish as it turns or rolls to take your bait. Sometimes you feel the fish tug, but most often strike detection is a matter of focusing on your line: if it's moving in a current sensing when it pauses, speeds up, or slows down, if in quiet water noticing when your line moves, tightens, or gains slack.
I find the type of sensitivity provided by feeling the fish take the bait through the rod to be the most infrequent and least important type of sensitivity involved in hooksets, whether fishing nymphs with a fly rod or worms with a baitcaster. I wouldn't call a rod's sensitivity a myth, but sensitivity is low on my priority list for selecting a rod blank.