Thanks to this board i could solve the guide question in [rodbuilding.org]


The Determination whether choose the correct wrap, spiraled or conventional, seems to be a fungous issue.

Blank data:

Length: 6 ft
Taper: ex-fast
Weight: 46gr
Lure: max 3 / 8 (casting)
Power: M-ML with L-Tip
Tip: 1.4mm
Butt: 6.6mm
100% solid with a 50T 30T Carbon Carbon-coated
Made in Japan
Reel : Presso (BC)
Line : 4LB Braid/FC
App : Rigs, Jigs, Wacky, Weightless Softbaits

My tendency is a conventional wrap, here are my thoughts:

Conventional:

- An ex.fast taper bending steeply got less torsion that reg, tapers
- A rod that light has no perceptible torsion
- Light apps (2-6g) are harder to cast spiral wrapped
- Overall better casting distance
- Better casting accury

Spiral:

- Less guides, no overall weight saving, but less weight to the tip-->Sensitivity
- No torsion
- No Line<-->Blank-Problem

Do you agree?

The all on top comes with T-KTSG threes to a 3.5-T-LFST, or 6/4.5/3/3/3...Tip (i´m not clear about anything)
The spiral would be that revolver with 6 down to the threes.

What wrap shall i choose?

The thread can also be used to solve the spiral/all-on-top question generally.

Best regards :)

From things I have been learning on micro guides, I choose spiral or conventional on what technigue the rod is going to be used for. If the rod is going to be used for a tight line retrieve and for most of these, for myself, the rod is pointed down towards the water, I build with a conventional configuration. This keeps the line off the blank on the retrieve and nothing to interfere with the line to help feel a bite. If the rod is going to be used with a slack line retrieve, I will build with a spiral wrap. Again as the lure is retrieved, the line is only on the guides and does not rub against the blank.

I'll reply to each part of your assumptions on conventional wraps, below.

Conventional:

- An ex.fast taper bending steeply got less torsion that reg, tapers - Not true. The amount of "torsion" will depend on the height of the guides above the blank and the load on the line.

- A rod that light has no perceptible torsion - Not true. The more load that is applied, the more "torsion" will be present.

- Light apps (2-6g) are harder to cast spiral wrapped - Not true.

- Overall better casting distance - From a practical standpoing, not true.

- Better casting accury - Not true.

................

I build both ways, but lately almost everything I have built is conventional with guides on top. These guides are so small and low to the blank that much of the benefit of a spiral wrap is gone, it is still there just greatly diminished. I have been very happy with my all on top micro rods, I don’t even put a huge number of guides on them, for bass fishing there are not many cases where the line is moving with any speed while the rod tip is held high and the blank is deeply flexed where the line might rub on the blank.

Conventional:

- An ex.fast taper bending steeply got less torsion that reg, tapers
- A rod that light has no perceptible torsion
- Light apps (2-6g) are harder to cast spiral wrapped
- Overall better casting distance
- Better casting accury

Please search for M&M's and you will find specific posts on casting distance and accuracy with micros both conventional and spiral wrapped.
"-Light apps (2-6g) are harder to cast spiral wrapped". The only way to answer this question is to make 1 rod with
both conventional and spiral wrapped guides (on the same rod). Then cast with your line going through the conventional wrap and
then with your line through the spiral wrap. Steve Gardner brought an example of this rod to the ICRBE.
Many agree with Mike about when to use conventional or spiral wrap guides.

Todd

You could put your handle and seat on. Then put the guides on one way Static Test then test cast, then the other way do the same. See which one you like . And which one performs better for your technique of fishing you do.

Bill - willierods.com

Alex,
Your situation brings up some interesting points.
On that vein, i.e. an extra fast tipped conventional wrapped blank - brings up a thought that perhaps we need to have some micros with taller guide feet.

Cetainly, if we - want to keep the line off the blank or crossing the blank when the blank is highly flexed, we can certainly tie on a guide ever 2 inches and it will do a nice job of keeping the line off the rod for a conventional wrap, if the desire is for a conventional wrap using a conventional short micro guide.

However, perhaps, it would be nice if the manufacturers were to make some micros to get the advantages of the smaller guide hole size, bue in a taller guide foot, so that one could wrap these extra fast tipped blanks with fewer guides to avoid the infamous line slapping, touching or crossing the blanks with short guides spaced a bit farther apart.

Take care
Roger

Amtak, Batson, Fuji and Pac Bay have the best minds in the component business working non stop on refinements needed for micro guide frame and ring development. Roger not one of the things noted in your post has been overlooked.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Proto types of these guides were passed out at High Point in February.

Bill,
Thanks for the updates.
Certainly makes sense.
Roger

So most of you would spiral wrap that blank?

Roger: 10 + 1 should be enaugh, thats not the problem. Anyway, those 3.0KTSG weight 0.028g.

I wouldn't spiral. But part of my logic is related to line path.

Line path discussion with pictures related to spirals:

[rodbuilding.org]

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Alex think about these issues for light action extra fast blank:

When casting is the blank loaded, bent, while the lure is outbound?

During the period of time that the lure is outbound where is the rod pointed and at what elevation?

What or who is in control of the loading when the lure is being retreived?

Who or what is in control of the loading while "playing" the fish?

Is there a fixed rule that requires progressive distance guide spacing from tip to butt?

Is it possible to build a rod with all the guides on top and place the guides ONLY where required?

Long throw, tip down techniques, extra fast blank I would build all on top with correct spacing of micro guides.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2010 09:11AM by Bill Stevens.

Depends on who is answering as to the answers you get!

But I am with you and what you're saying - also depends on the type of fishing - if it's something other than a straight down retrieve, I'd probably never spiral because you are going to be fighting a fish on multiple planes - so you lose any advantage a sprial gives for fighting - especially on a light action rod with a decent sized fish - you are going to be moving however to keep it hooked up.

The current design of micros decrease the amount of torque anyway by having the line closer to the blank. We go with higher framed micros, and you will be generating more torque again - regardless of on top or spiral.

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Is there a sumery of "spiral vs conventional casting test" anywhere?
I read four of them so far:
1. As i can remember, 7% more distance for the conv.
2. Not a trial, but a long and plausible post that said spirals cast further when saving 2 guides over the conv. build on a same blank.
3. Bill Stevens magazine report with unequal blanks.
4. Accuracy: "i had problems keeping lures out of trees with the acid one"

So, if spiral rods casts same distance precisely, why build conv. rods for down/straight applications....

I will mostly use a "Tip high line down" fishing technique on a belly boat and wont have to fight crazy Bass on different levels (maybe i´ll see them in italy this sommer, also per belly :>)., rather perch , also drilled with tip high.

Casting accuracy is wholly dependent on the person doing the casting. The lure will go where the rod tip is going at the moment of release. There is nothing you can do to the guides that is going to cause a rod to cast anywhere other than where you thrown the lure. A guy who has problems keeping his lures out of trees needs to aim a little lower if he intends to hit the water.

A good spiral wrap system will feature a line path that is nearly as straight as that of a guides on top set up. There is no practical difference in casting distance between good set ups of either type.

................

"There is no practical difference in casting distance between good set ups of either type."

"- An ex.fast taper bending steeply got less torsion that reg, tapers - Not true. The amount of "torsion" will depend on the height of the guides above the blank and the load on the line.

- A rod that light has no perceptible torsion - Not true. The more load that is applied, the more "torsion" will be present.

- Light apps (2-6g) are harder to cast spiral wrapped - Not true.

- Overall better casting distance - From a practical standpoing, not true.

- Better casting accury - Not true."

So, did you or anyone testcast 3-6g on a twisted light-rod, or better than that, compared two equal light blanks with both wraps?
Do you have a source for me?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2010 01:51PM by Alex Kulinsky.

For all I have done with spiral and conventional wrapped rods, you will not see any real difference in casting distance. Casting distance and accuracy is all dependent on the person using the rod. Sometime I think if the person thinks he is going to cast further, he is probably using better casting technigue to get a longer cast. The only thing I can see that a spiral wrap will do for you is make the rod stable when fighting a fish for the most part. I do like using it for slack line retrieves when using the rod, to be the line will not be touching the blank, specially when you are using the smaller guides and with the wet line and stuff, the line is only touching the guides and not brushing up against the blank at all.

Alex,

Yes, in fact, I performed these tests extensively with a mechanical casting machine a decade or more ago.

I could go into greater explanation if you'd like, but I'd hope most of this would be obvious.


............

Ergo, with a tip high method you would revolver it, 6 down to threes?

I would be very interested in more details! Did you post that knowledge anywhere s far, (spares sore fingers :>) got links?

On a spiral would the spine on the rod be the same as you would when putting guides on the conventional way. since most of the guides will be on the bottom of the rod, like a spinning rod, i would like to know if I should just put the guides on like you would when putting the guides on the conventional way, or should i put them on as if building a spinning rod, Thank you , hoping for some answers.