Each epoxy finish has "a mind of its own." It is futile to "fight" the epoxy or argue with it. Chemical reactions are immutable. If Diamond II doesn't fit your technique or style, try something else.

Herb the product does have the working time as listed.

You did not get a bad batch.

You have clearly defined the problem you have with Diamonde II -

The problem you report is your procedures.

The chemical reaction others have noted is clearly defined:

It is called polymerization. When phases are properly mixed at the proper temperatures the "curing process" starts. Attempts at uncontrolled temperature swings out of the suggested ranges during the curing cycle will produce erratic end results not only unpredictable changes in viscosity but also in the physical properties final product.

I do not think you will find one supplier of two part resin systems that would want their products used following your procedures.

Please read the information included in the following:
.
[en.wikipedia.org]



I for one will not try to create a fire by the use of a freezer

The maker of the product does indeed have experience with freezing epoxy - that's why they tell you not to do it.

Your definition of pot life is not accurate. Pot life entails how long the product can be applied and worked and sill be expected to flow. It will do that for 45 minutes, easy, I mixed some up last night and tried it myself. The manufacturer lists the scientific pot life on the label - they cannot possibly list what the useable working limit is for you personally, particularly when they have no control over your mixing and application procedure.

The only way you're going to be able to make this product work for you is to use it correctly. If you refuse to do that then you're going to have problems with it. Your entire application procedure is set up to produce less than optimum results. At this point your choice is to change your application procedure to something that is more epoxy friendly, or return to using a product that you have good results with when using your particular technique.

...............

I suspect Herb is in my neck of the woods. Temperature here are higher and I'm afraid the AC will blow dust on the wraps so I leave it off.

So some things I do to help;
1) Pour the mixed epoxy on aluminum foil. It makes a big difference.
2) If I have underwraps I do them first, wet sand with 400 grit, and then wrap the guides on. Now I don't have to fuss as much with finish between the guide feet.
3) Start at the tip end. The smaller guides need a thinner finish.
4) Apply finish with the rod turning. Load brush and touch the epoxy to the blank and let it flow onto the wrap. Never paint it on.
5) Don't fight your pot life. It is okay to have to mix two batches.
6) Use a straw rather than heat to deal with any bubbles.
7) After the finish is on let it sit guides up till it sags, rotate 180 and repeat. This will fill any tunnels. Rotate again and after it sags remove extra. Better to apply a little too much and remove IMHO.
8) Use a big enough brush. On long underwraps apply lenghtwise and then spin and smooth out.
9) Then put the thing in the dryer and resist the urge to improve. Yes blow out the bubbles if need be and wipe the edges of the wraps if you messed up but that is about it.

Herb,
I think that one simply has to go with the flow. (so to speak)

I have never seen an advertised pot time - be equal to what it is in reality.

For example most 15 minute epoxies have a real pot time of about 3 minutes.
1 hour epoxies have a pot time of about 15 minutes.

Most of the rod finishes - for myself - have a usable pot time of about 5 minutes. Each person has a different definition of pot time. I suspect that my definition is closer to yours than what others might have. i.e. I consider pot time when the finish / glue is still very thin, easy to spread, still cool to the touch, and has not had a viscosity change from the initial mix.

In my opinion, as soon as the temperature begans to rise, as soon as the viscosity begans to change - I consider it the end of the pot life. I am not saying that you can't continue to use it after that point, I just consider it the end of the pot life.

So, before using any different glue or finish, It is ALWAYS a good idea to mix up a batch of the size that you are planning on using in the containers and or methods that you are planning to use with the particular material.

Then, do a few finish parctice finish applications, or spreading of the glue on a test surface. Continue to test, until you find that the temperature is beginning to rise, and or the viscosity is beginning to change. At this point, make note of the time and do what you have to do to live within the constraints of that time.


It is fine to take 5 minutes to finish a guide, if you can live within the constraints of the kick time of the finish. It is fine to take an hour to glue up a handle - if you can live within the time constraints of the glue.

----
This entire saga reminds me of a story from long ago. I was raised on a farm and ranch out in Montana. Every time that we would move our cattle to a different pasture, the cattle would first find water and have a nice long drink. Then, in nearly every case they would began a walk to walk the borders and boundaries of the new pasture. The cattle were finding the boundaries of their new quarters. After finding the boundaries, they would be content and go to do their usual grazing and other activities.

I think that many of the things that we do in life in that when we encounter new conditions, products, friends etc. we need to explore the boundaries of the situation before we become comfortable with the particular situation, product, person or experience.

Test, explore, and then enjoy.

Take care
Roger

....or just do it the easy way.

Unless a typing error Herb has just revealed why he is having different results in pot life and finish with the Diamond 2 compared to his other epoxy’s

When you typed
“With TM Lite all I would have tomdo is "drop" a little on the edge and it would blend into the prior coat.”

If you are using TM Light and I’ll awesome Flex Coat light. Then you can not even compare the results with Diamond 2.
Those light epoxy’s have a different chemical make up in order to be thinner and will always take longer to set up, flow better and have longer pot lives.

It would be the same as comparing Diamond 2 to 5 minute rod bond epoxy and expecting the rod bonds pot life to last as long as the Diamond 2. Won’t happen, can’t happen.

Now I’m going to admonish you a little bit.
If in fact your typing was not in error you have wasted 3 pages of responses by not including all the facts in your original post. Like was stated before there is not a problem with the product. The problem was in your communications.

You sir owe Mrs. Davis an apology for defaming her product, I would say you owe this forum an apology for wasting its time, but there was a lot of good info that came about because of your comments, including the need to effectively communicate all the details when complaining.
And like many suggested if you want better result you should follow their advice. Just because you have done it that way for thirty years, does not mean there is not a better or newer way to do it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2010 11:28AM by Steve Gardner.

There are ONLY three options possible here....

1- Herb can change his application technique to what the manufacturer recommends.

2- Herb can go back to an epoxy that is better for his current application method.

3- Silvia can reformulate Diamond II to better suit what Herb is doing with it.

I think the last one is out of the question but that still leaves Herb with two really good options. The choice is his!

same subject but a little different question.

after all the reading about where to get diamond 11, i am wondering about mine, it works fine, no complaints, but the bottle says "Diamond two" (quotations marks are mine) by someone named richard and an email address of rodology@hotmail.com.

I cannot remember where i ordered it from, i order from several different places.

once again i like it, just curious if i have the product from the right people.

Well, Peter, that gave me a good laugh anyway. No, sorry, but formulating a special product for Herb isn’t in the cards. Though my time right now really needs to be devoted to preparing for the ICRBE which I will be attending and hold booth space, I find myself conducting experiments to address this unusual issue. I have been freezing batches of DIAMOND II and another well known leading brand rod finish. Trying to duplicate what Herb has described I first tried to let both thaw to room temperature. This wasn’t enough for them to go on easily, so I then warmed them slightly with a trick I use and haven’t ever seen posted before—using a heating pad. Once the two finishes were warm I noticed the DIAMOND II no longer had the original texture or viscosity that it had going into the freezer. It by definition was now a different product than that out of the bottle. I am not as familiar with my competitor’s product so I can’t speak as knowledgably, but it too seemed a bit different when comparing to a new mix fresh out of the bottle.

I also tried using both products as they were without my warming technique, then applying both products as Herb describes also with a slow approach of the soldering iron. I am not telling anyone who has ever used a soldering iron anything new, but if you aren’t used to using one it doesn’t generate broad, gentle warmth—it isn’t designed for that. It is designed to ‘spot heat’ and melt solder. Solder is a metal alloy with a melting point or melting range of 90 to 450°C (200 to 840°F). While I understand that Herb says he brings the soldering iron to it carefully, there is really no such thing. That is pretty much like saying, “I will gently poke you with a cattle prod.” Now that I have tried it myself I just don’t see how it ever delivers a good result. Irons are very useful for soldering anything from electronic components to sheet metal, but NOT for the purpose that has been laid out by Herb. Use of the iron to warm the finish resulted in valleys of warm flowing finish with intermittent raised hills. Both of the finishes reacted exactly the same.

As far as the bubbles Herb has complained about—the trip to the freezer and the consequent use of the soldering iron caused this effect—for roughly every 20F drop in temperature from about 70F you double the set and cure time. So, if Herb can get the epoxy down to a low enough temperature he is certainly going to greatly prolong the pot life. But there are two major problems with doing this...

First, it's not being dropped to freezing in an instant, so it's still setting as it is cooling. Then, when he brings it out of the freezer, it begins warming and so it's setting again. He's losing pot life during the cooling and warming cycle.

Then, he's dealing with an epoxy that is thick and hard to work with. That's why he takes the soldering iron and uses it to heat the epoxy - because it's too thick and gooey to do anything with. And he's heating it with such intense heat that he's boiling it, which is the cause of his "frothy bubbles."

Ladies and gentlemen the only thing that I can see that I have accomplished today is seeing what not to do to epoxy and how to torture it. I never doubted our product, but it is my duty and responsibility as the owner of Bullard International to respond swiftly and professionally to any reasonable complaint.

Herb, I would rather you not buy DIAMOND II than misuse the product and blame the product for your mistakes. I also think it was more than a bit unprofessional to take a jab at us on a public forum with a derogatory posting title when the product was never a problem.

Silvia Davis

Hi Jim,

I am so glad to hear that you are using and enjoying DIAMOND II. You are most likely just fine with what you are using, but if there is ever any question please send the remainder of your kit along with your receipt and I will replace it. At this time we have two authorized dealers in the U.S., Lance at Swampland Tackle [www.swamplandtackle.com] and Karen at Bingham Enterprises [www.angelfire.com]. We are adding dealers to our family just as soon as we return from the ICRBE. I will announce those new dealers at that time.

If I can help in any way please don’t hesitate to contact me.

Silvia Davis

i have no complaints, in fact it took the worry out of my application, i used to worry over this part of the process but not any more, any problems i have now are purely mine.

Diamond II saved my butt on Christmas Eve when I had only enough time and only had one chance to get a lengthy wrap finished perfectly-level, with no bubbles. I had never used DII before and had run completely out of my former favorite finish. I unwrapped the Diamond II package, glanced at the directions, and nervously applied it with a brush and a prayer. It came out absolutely perfectly level with not a micro- bubble in sight and the best thing was, I never had to tamper with it. I did my work and it did its "work." I have had good luck with all the finishes, but great luck with Diamond II and I look forward to tote a bunch home from the ICRBE and to personally thank Sylvia for her contribution to rod-building and her obvious dedication to her product.

about the Diamond II, in the freezer, would remixing it after thawing it out ,help before putting it on teh wraps?