Herb,
I read your comment:

"Main issue is that I prefer my finish to end at the end of the wrap and not overlap onto the blank."

I simply ask the question - WHY?

Take care
Roger

Herb,
I simply have to ask the question:

Main issue is that I prefer my finish to end at the end of the wrap and not overlap onto the blank.



Why do you prefer to do the finish this way?

I always worry a bit about having a 100% positive seal on each and every wrap and wouldn't want to run without a bit of a safety margin on the end of the threads.
Do you have a specific reason to not overwrap the finish onto the blank?

Thanks much
Roger

Where the finish goes is regulated by where you set the brush down. With the technique I outlined above, you are not forced to set that first bit of the brush beyond the edge of the guide wrap. You can set it right to the edge and no further, if you wish.

The one thing that really helps get a straight edge, even when working fast, is to have a block or wood, or something, to rest the heel of your hand on. Once you do this, the brush is steady and you're simply rotating the rod underneath it. In fact, this is the best way I know of to get a crisp edge, either overlapping the edge of the thread, or not.

I would wait and fill the tunnels after you have coated all the wraps. Those are the largest areas and thus that's where you want the epoxy to have time to flow well and level out.

............

First Herb, I think the thread should stay because there is a lot of really good info in it.

Best "line" in the thread is the part about every finish acting differently and learning each one's characteristics is a must.

Not a thing wrong with keeping the finish on the thread alone. Many times I do, many times I dont, depends on what I want. Finish will "creep" and move, meaning even if you keep the finish on the thread alone, the wraps seal just fine when no CP is used.

Why?

Clean looks, ease of guide replacement, less finish weight, perfectly straight finish edges ....just to name a few....

DR

Herb,

Nobody knows better than those who post here how disheartening it can be when a project goes wrong. I know after our long conversation about a week ago you were excited to try our product and I still feel there is hope for your use of DIAMOND II—if used properly. I never mind the honest truth of an experience with our product—though all application processes should be mentioned so that I can address a problem if there is one. For example, I know we discussed your use of the soldering iron in our original conversation and I explained then—and will stand by the fact—that heating is not necessary with DIAMOND II. Your use of a soldering iron is also contributing to the shortened pot life and possibly a host of other problems.

Your freezing of DIAMOND II is something that I have no experience with and do not recommend. It only makes sense to me though that this would also shorten the eventual pot life—which is an area you are having problems.

I would like to address your comment of what you describe as “hype” for our product. As it turns out I now know that you thought DIAMOND II was a new product. We are only ‘new’ by way of reintroducing a product that has been tried and true by rod builders worldwide. There is no hype in the description or selling of our product. The word you most likely will hear is “history.” I must say I never mind hearing any honest comment of our product, but this hit home with me. While you may not know it, Gene Bullard, the first to introduce a two-part rod finish many years ago, ate at my dinner table such as it was while I was growing up. He did this at my home, my mother’s gracious home, and others while he struggled to make the product you label as hype. I promise you, this product has no such thing—only 100 percent genuine blood, sweat, and tears “history.” By definition hype means to publicize in an exaggerated and often misleading manner. Gene Bullard never had to or would mislead those who meant so much to him—the rod builder. Because I know this to be true I will never run this business any other way.

You mentioned that you are very slow to apply the product. I wanted to relate a story of my wallpapering habits. If I had to hang paper for a living, I surely wouldn’t eat. I am terribly slow. Because of this I coat my paper one sheet at a time, hang it and then on to the next—professionals don’t do that. Possibly your answer would be to mix only the amount you need for the one task at hand—one guide, mix again, and so on. Just an idea to cut down on a frustration I can empathize with.

I have an article that I think would really be a great deal of help to you. RodMaker, volume 12 no. 4, page 18. This is an excellent article on the application of finish written by Tom Kirkman.
I don’t know if you are planning to come to the ICRBE, but we would love to have you come by the DIAMOND II booth (on row D) for a visit. Let me know you are coming and I will arrange a demonstration of our product.

Silvia Davis



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2010 08:38PM by Silvia Davis.

Herb,

The first thing I do when something goes wrong with a build is to ask myself "what did I do wrong?" The products that are available to us are high quality stuff that is rigorously tested. Sure, mistakes happen and a bad batch or two might slip out. Most of the time when things go wrong, it's not the products fault, it the rodbuilder's fault. You can't break all of the rules of epoxy application and then make negative remarks in a public forum when things go wrong. That's just not right. Last night I had a bunch of fish eyes in the second layer of FC that I applied over the base of a tiger wrap. I knew that something happened that was my fault. I tried to think back step by step of what I did and I realized that I didn't wipe the oil off of a razor blade that I used to trim a nub off after the first layer of epoxy. When all else fails, follow the manufacturer's directions- and the directions of the rod building wizards on this forum (myself not included!)

It shouldn't take you more than 5 min to epoxy the wrap on a rod without being in a hurry. There's nothing wrong with taking your time, however, you don't want to go overboard with going slow. I find that even with FC, it becomes unworkable if I make the mistake of taking too long to coat the wraps. When I first started building, I used to try to coat the wraps while the rod was on my 4 rpm dryer and it took forever. I soon learned to apply the epoxy by spinning the rod by hand and it cut my application time from 15 min to 5 min. My best advice is too do your best to speed up a bit and leave the freezer and the soldering iron out of rod building.

jeremy

I just tried Diamond II for the first time last night. While I am used to working with TM lite I had no issues with Diamond II. The finish was a little thicker than I was used to but it was not bad kind of a cross between Flex Coat and Threadmaster regular. I mixed by had as I always do a few small bubbles were introduced but a little warm air blown though a straw took care of them. The finish went on smooth a few bubbles from the thread met with the same results. I was amazed at how fast it was cured to touch much better than TM. I will say that the finish left over on the foil is as clear or clearer than the TM I used the night before. Each product has it's use and I will continue to use ThreadMaster but I have also added another finish into the line up as well. Thanks to Karen at Bingham for the fast shipping and great service as usual.

Ed

Chuck sorry we will not see you this year. The Diamond II replacement will be sent to with your next order at no charge.

Bill, that's a very kind offer. The Diamond Two bottles are unopened. I'll send them to you.

I will be thinking of all you guys and watching the posts. I really wanted to come but prior commitments and all that...

Herb - I hope you get your solution.

Chuck

_________________________________________
"Angling is extremely time consuming.
That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane

SORRY TO HIJACK.......
Bill,
The diamond two that was in the old package is still the same stuff right? I got some from Swampland a while ago that has Snag on it.
I'm not looking for a replacement, I'm just curious cause it's almost gone and I'm used to using it!!!!!!!! Works just fine.

Steven,

If you don’t mind that I answer your question about DIAMOND II. Though our issue was isolated to one very specific area, if you received your DIAMOND II before November of last year from Swampland you should have gotten the real deal. I am very glad to hear you are having good success with it. If you have any problems whatsoever after receiving your next purchase, please contact me directly. I feel that you most likely got the same dependable formula that makes our product so user friendly.

Silvia Davis

I am still trying to under stand that freezer thing ? The only things I put in the fridge ( not freezer ) is permagloss or LumiSeal.

It is also good to over lap the finish onto the blank just to keep water from going under the thread and rusting the guide feet.

All finishes do have a learning curve, usually heck always user error.It is good stuff.

Bill - willierods.com

I hope to come back from the Show with about a gallon of the stuff-I love it, especially the lack of micro-bubbles. To each his own.

Herb, are you in south florida? I'm in Hollywood. I don't know if I can be of any help but I'm willing to try. I do things differently and have been happy with my results. I use threadmaster light and feel it is a good choice for our brutal temperatures and sun.


Russ

Herb, as I read this, I felt bad for Silvia and the Diamond 11 folks.

Steve,

How nice of you to show your support—though this is nothing for you to feel bad about. It is a misfortune for Herb and for that we can sympathize. I believe by the many posts here we all understand when guidelines are not followed for a product there can be unfortunate effects in the end. Gene was always open to honest discussion about his products. Heck, he was open to downright arguments over rod blanks. He loved free enterprise, good ol’ competition and he loved the art of an open discussion even more—I am much like him in that way.

We will have some of the most knowledgeable people in the business meeting next week at the ICRBE, and I intend to bring up this scenario to find out facts on the chemical reaction and consequences this procedure Herb practices would actually have on any rod finish. I love this business—there is always something to learn. This thread has been a source of great information to many and I have encouraged it.

Silvia Davis

Could the problem Herb.... have been an off mix of the two products: finish and hardener?

Many times we make human mistakes, everyone does..... and all finish troubles in my rod room have been 99% mine, and 99% of them have also been either not having a 1:1 mix ratio or not mixing well enough, with the latter being the most often for sure. Syringes stopped the mix ratio issue, and going to a FLAT mixing tool, folding and mixing well ended all finish troubles no matter which finish I buy. I have several brands right now, all open and all in use. Each has differing characteristics, but they all do very well.

DR

Duane,
Thanks.
I do use syringes - always have. And I mix the recommended 3cc's.
I use the Pac Bay mixer. No human errors - just not familiar enough with the product's characteristics.

Update - I had to rip-out one double foot guide and two ferrule wraps.

I will tell you one thing - this stuff holds guides and thread well.

In analyzing the problem I had I decided that I had to improve pot life because all was well until the finish thickened necessitating heat. Which the product does not like - obviously.
So today I separated 3cc's into 4 batches - one I used and the other 3 went into the freezer. before you call me daft please try it first.

Bill B. - I don't have to tell you that thread finishers cure by chemical reaction - speeded-up by heat. Take the heat away and you substantially slow it down.

It works for all finishes I have used - including Dia II - try it. I have been doing that for 30 years with true epoxies.

I had to rip out a #10 d/f guide and three ferrule wraps. These were the ones that I heated because the Dia II was setting too fast - unlike TM and FC, the Dia II doesn't like heat.

I will say that it took a lot to destroy the wraps - that stuff holds thread and guides. Also, it is crystal clear. But it had a tendency to creep away from one edge of the stripper guide. It sets so fast that I had to a complete coat of one foot after 3 hrs on the drying mach. With TM Lite all I would have tomdo is "drop" a little on the edge and it would blend into the prior coat.

Anyway - if done nicely, the finish is great - not very forgiving though - to me.

Herb

The maker of the product says not to put it in the freezer but you do it anyway and obviously intend to continue doing it. So you really cannot complain or blame the finish for anything that might go wrong.

Rather than "try it" I would have to figure out what to do with all that time. I guess I must be missing something. You put it on and move to the next guide and in a matter of minutes you are done. What is taking so much time? The epoxy does its own leveling and flowing........you do not have to help it do that.

Something just is not right here. I wish we could motion streaming video or something so we could watch you applying the finish.

Peter,
Maker of the product has no experience with freezing - I'm having probs with product so ipso-facto it must be the freezing.

I timed myself.
1 1/2 - 2 min for a stripper and other 2 d/f guides - 30 seconds for s/f running guides. Plus time to move to next guide - Plus time to rotate each section between application - Plus time to load applicator - Plus time to reset timer to remind me to rotate. Let's say 20 min to complete rod.
Stuff just does not have the pot life advertised.
But let's define pot life. To me pot life ends when product has higher viscosity than when first applied. If I want to apply a thin coat of finish that still shows thread texture it has to be thin. It would be different if I wished to cover threads in one application.

Look at it this way - Dia II stops flowing and is tacky within 2 hrs. How can it have a (USABLE to me) pot life of 1 hr and in another hour is tacky. There is no such thing as a finish going from free flowing to tacky in one hour.

Hey - the product has a great finish, luster and hardness. It is the most brilliant finish I have ever seen I truly wish it was more user friendly for me. I will keep trying to make it work for me - I will try making multiple batches i/o freezing. But I would like someone to test freeze a portion to provide for "fresh" product that flows freely. It does not need heating - just a min or two at room temperature - perhaps Swampland will try. Also - maybe I got a bad batch - but that is unlikely.
Herb



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2010 10:45PM by Herb Ladenheim.