Well - I fell for the Diamond II hype. I was really looking forward to a good experience.

My work area may have been too warm - 75 degrees. But it never was too warm for TM
With TM I would divide the batch into 3 portions - put two in the freezer and let "thaw" and warm for use. I rarely had to use freezer batches other than to touch-up.
Did the same with Dia. II. Had to use all three just to give one thin coat.

Pot life much less than TM - my opinion.

Very short pot life. One hour is WAY overstated.

Leveling - O.K. But not better than TM.

Bubbles - foamy kind - I use the Pac Bay mixer. Bubbles never an issue with TM

Really sorry I got involved - especially on this rod - a CTS 10'6" #6 switch.

I guess I should have tried on test wraps - stupid.

Considered stopping in mid stream and ripping out wraps. But I am hopeful that 2nd coat will make all O.K.

Be back to you tomorrow. I really hope I will have to eat my words.
Herb

Interesting. I have some - thought I had some. Turns out it's the stuff labeled Diamond Two (not II) and I have no receipt or anything. It's not from one of the approved dealers.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Diamond II and there has been no hype involved. You are placing the blame in the wrong place.

All the various epoxies on the market work exactly as advertised. But each one will handle a little bit differently. If you want something that handles like ThreadMaster, stick with ThreadMaster. If you want to use Diamond II, or Flex Coat, or whatever, you'll have to learn how those products handle and use them accordingly.


...............

I don't think I understand what you are saying....what on earth are you putting in the freezer? Where in the Dimanond II directions does it tell you to do that. I received a sample of the Diamond II a while back from the manuf. I had no issues with bubbles (using a mixer) pot life, or anything you are complaining of. I ended up sticking with TM since I am used to it, but I really don't see how any finish can be that bad....like Tom said, they all work. Can you explain the freezer part?

Scott Sheets
www.smsrods.com

Hmmm.....I have had nothing but positive experiences with the Diamond II product. I feel like it handles a lot like Flex Coat but is just a wee bit clearer or brighter.

I guess if all the epoxies behaved the same way then there would be no market for all these different products. I believe you have to find the epoxy that works best with YOUR application technique and then stick with that one.

It helped me with any of the epoxies to speed up my time taken in putting them on. I think if you move faster the epoxy gets on the guide and has more time to flow and level. If you are taking a really long time on each wrap then the epoxy is getting thicker and thicker and starting to set. When you go in the freezer or cooler even while it is thawing it is starting to set to you are also losing pot life and making it much stiffer and less likely to flow well when you put it on the wraps.

To each his own but any time you introduce something in and out of a cooler / freezer you will be introducing moisture into the equation. That alone would keep me from that practice. If you are seeking a long pot life then try some of the U40 products.

Chuck Swampland will replace what you have free of charge even if it was a free sample. Hope you have left on the dog sled! See you next week.

The only thing I put in the freezer when finishing is some beer if I ran out of cold ones. Sounds like you may have gotten some of the product that was distributed as the real thing but really wasn`t.

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2010 04:02PM by Fred Yarmolowicz.

I have been using the freezer procedure for a long time with both FC and TM & TM Lite - no negative issues. The freezer simply slows down the chemical reaction. I do not believe moisture has any impact as it would with Permagloss.

I am not a fast worker and use the freezer procedure to compensate and I have been very happy with it. Perhaps Dia.II does not like it.

What I did that Dia. II probably does not like - in retrospect - is GENTLY warmed it with a soldering iron held a few inches below the wrap - again, my normal (sucessful) practice with TM and TM Lite.

However, the first batch of Dia II that was used immediately began to thicken in 1/3 the time as TM Lite

What I should have done - and I can kick myself - is to test the Dia II on scrap blanks before I tried it on a good blank.

As far as sticking with a proven product - if we always did that we would still all be using spar varnish.


Herb

Fred,
Negative. Before I bot product I had a long conversation with Sylvia. She put me in touch with Swampland and i was sent a good supply. Sylvia just called me and confirmed that.
herb

The heating cycle initiated the problem you experienced - I would suspect that the applied heat to the chilled product and the visually apparant viscosity difference may not be the same - if it quickly set after heating you heated it too much - I can not imagine having to chill and reheat same batches with the number of rods I process with one batch. What working time are you seeking with one batch of finish - how many rods/kind are you doing - I can easily finish 10 rods (7' nine guides) per batch and my shop is approximately 75 degrees. If you dont chill it you don't have to heat it - Diamone II provides the advertised working time. I would really like to hear the specifics of the need to chill! I will chill and wait for you response and hopefully we will not find the need to get heated to settle the issue.

Fred like your thinking but don't forget the vodka. Helps to level the bubbles or is it that you can't see them. Anyway it's yje thought that counts.

Herb
To speed up the time that it takes you to put your finish on, wrap the blank on either side of your guides with scotch tape. After you have all of the wraps done just go back and pull the tape off. You will have a perfect edge without spending so much time on each edge.
Pat

Again, this isn't a problem with the particular brand of finish. You may not want to believe it, but your finishing technique is adverse to good results where most epoxies are concerned.

If you've been getting away with this technique on another brand of finish, you may want to stick with that one.

.............

Tom,
I think your second paragraph is correct.

Bill,
Are you using Diamond II??

I was not looking for remedies - just giving a heads-up and expressing my opinion. And, as I said, I hope I will eat my words after the second coat is applied - without warmth.

Oh - and BTW - I did not heat the freezer batch. It warms at room temp nicely.

As I told Sylvia today - after reading about Dia II on this site I was under the distinct impression that it was a new-and-improved product just released along with the new cleaner.

What say we close this thread.

Herb



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2010 05:11PM by Herb Ladenheim.

You don't want to hear this, but a second application is not likely to cure the problems with the first - at least if they're already apparent in the wrap. We all know how much time goes into wrapping guides and when that final finish doesn't come out like we want, it can be a hair pulling episode.

Your technique is quite contrary to what any epoxy formulator would advise you to do. Because I've dealt with so many rod builders and their various epoxy troubles, I know exactly what went wrong for you. You're moving much too slowly, which means the epoxy is setting up and becoming harder and harder to work with. In an attempt to thwart that happening, you're putting some in the freezer. Because it's not being flash frozen, you're still using up pot life as it cools and then again as it warms, leading to even less pot life. And with the thicker epoxy being hard to work with, you're heating it in order to momentarily thin it in the hopes of getting it to flow better. But at some point that doesn't work. What happens it that you have to apply so much heat that you boil it and the result is a froth of bubbles.

All these problems can be corrected by doing just one thing - move along. If you're spending more than a half minute on a guide wrap you're setting yourself up for problems. Your room temperature of 75F is a good one for most epoxies. Mix your finish and then dip and load your brush (a flat, square, soft brush about 1/4 to 3/8 inch wide) with epoxy, hold the brush above the wrap and then lower the brush to the wrap. When the brush lightly contacts the wrap, rotate the rod one complete revolution. If that doesn't cover the entire wrap, reload the brush, move over a little and repeat. Then move on. You're done with that wrap. The epoxy knows what to do and will do it if you'll leave it alone. You need to get moving and get all the guides coated before the finish starts to get thick on you. You can always come back after they're all coated and touch in any dry areas or pop any bubbles. You'll have plenty of time for that. The main thing is to move on and get those guides coated in just a few minutes total.

Of course, you're free to move to a technique that will almost automatically give you better results, or not. That's up to you and is something you'll have to decide for yourself. If you're dead set on sticking with your current technique and you know that ThreadMaster works okay with it, then there's certainly nothing wrong with staying with it. But sometimes you can take a step backwards and find that in short order you're two steps forward. Just something to think about. I do hope the rod eventually turns out well for you.

....................

Herb,
If you have a power wrapper, use it to apply your rod finish.
I use the power wrapper, to apply the finish at about 200 rpm. With the wrapper, it is easy to quickly accelerate the rod for long places to apply finish but to stop it instantly, when you need to work in and around the corners or back side of a guide.

I simply use a disposable brush to get the finish on the rod. With the high speed, it is very easy to get a very sharp line on the side of each guide.

I then slow down the rod, and use a bit of heat from the heat gun on each and every guide and wrap to insure that the finish has flowed the way that I want along with ano cloudy or any other issues that I might note on a particular guide.
I then transfer the rod to my 6-10 rpm wrapper for the long dry.

Using this method, it should take no more than 30 seconds to one minute per guide. Often less.

Again, after having mixed your finish - spread in a thin layer on an aluminum pan to slow down the kick time of the finish. No reason why a person can't easily finish many rods with a single batch with no issues.

Take care
Roger


'

Bill, very sorry to say that I can't make it this year. We'll talk after the show.

Tom,
I sincerely thank you for the tone and content of the above post.
Of course I have read your advice many times. Main issue is that I prefer my finish to end at the end of the wrap and not overlap onto the blank. I find it difficult to work that fast and accomplish this. The wraps are flanked with metallic trim which slightly complicates my objective of no overlap onto the blank.

If I am incorrect about this I would appreciate your thoughts.

Only thing in my defence is that the first, and unfrozen, batch of Dia. II thickened-up inordinately fast - a 3/4" ferrule wrap and two double footed guides worth. However, I did fill the tunnels at that point - but I had to do it anyway at some point. I am slow, but not that slow. As I said before, I can do most of a fly rod with one load of TM and not have it thicken until the last few running guides. That is when I break out the frozen stuff. Then I use the last frozen batch to apply on the "starved" areas - generally over the double footed guide feet.
Herb