If you use "line touch" fishing methods and in this case I'm refering to bass fishing with either bait caster or spinning - How important is rod sensitivity - really?

Other than selecting a blank/build process that addresses angler fatigue while minimizing guide count and foot print to retain as much of the bare blank qualities as possible while optimizing line management and rod loading is there a compelling reason sensitivity should rate very high on the "it really matters" scale? Granted you'll inherently gain sensitivity while addressing issues related to angler fatigue but if you're constantly in contact with the line isn't the line going to be your first clue regarless of the rods capability to transmit vibration? I realize "line touch" isn't feasible with a crankbait but other than that I'd be hard pressed to determine a style of fishing where I could not employ line touch where sensitivity mattered.

I think that the best thing to with with rod sensitivity is to stop talking about it.

Sensitivity means so many different things to so many folks that it is really better to build rods that are light, rods that please both the builder and client and go out and catch fish.

If you build the rod with the blank that is best suited for the type fishing you are going to use it for, and if you build it as is reasonably possible - go enjoy the rod and don't worry about semantics of the process.

Enjoy

Roger

If you'll fish a top water plug all day every trip out then you'll know when a fish hits it, cause you'll see it. That's what I do anyway.

Doug;

Stealing a very well stated quote from Mr. Emory;
“Rod sensitivity is a function of how well a rod transmits to the fisherman's hand any energy that occurs at the tip of the rod. The fisherman detects this by the displacement or movement at his or her hand. It involves the fisherman's hand and no other of the fisherman's senses. It has nothing to do with his or her sense of vision or smell or taste or hearing. It only involves the sense of feel"

I think if you are talking about this type of sensitivity in bass fishing, then sensitivity on the blank is paramount.
Even if you are touching the line to aid bite detection you will lose some of that ability with a rod that is not sensitive because that rod will absorb some to the "feel" you are trying to acquire through the line.

Fishing in the ocean were the fish bite with such ferocity that a Mack truck would do be able to detect the bite also precludes the need to have a “feel” sensitive blank
When you are talking about sensitivity as being a function of sight you could use any old blank that had light enough tip to see it move in relation to the size fish you are after.

People that do not understand subjects would rather avoid them, but avoiding them accomplishes little to further this craft.

The same things that tend to make a rod more "sensitive" are also the things that tend to make a rod lighter, better balanced, more responsive, etc. The benefits in building a better rod don't stop with sensitivity.

..............

I think that I am going to go take my temperature to make sure that I am OK. I find myself in total agreement with both Tom and Steve in the same thread and it is a thread about sensitivity.

Mathew - with all due respect, and I really mean that, I could very easily pick a manufactured rod off the rack that would easily meet those requirements. I'm simply trying to gather information that will allow me to gain a competative edge I did not previously have and satisfy my inner anal needs to know why I should do it that way.

Steve - Reading and research by all means available sometimes leads to misunderstandings and/or misconseptions by the researcher simply because he his too ignorant to interpret what he has read. Ignorance can be cured but as Ron White said "You can't fix stupid." While I'm not stuipd I am, at this time, ingnorant of all the whys and wherefores relative to rod building. Thank you for understanding that and responding to the question.

Tom: I'm beginning to see that whether you pursue rod building with sensitivity tunnel vision or lightness with that same tunnel vision you basically end up in the same spot. One seemingly implies the other. With, of course, functionallity being the moderator in either case.

Emory: Dang, the guy does have a sense of humor!

While touching your line for additional feel can be helpful, a finger touching the line to feel a bite has a VERY small contact point.

With a sensitive rod, your WHOLE hand is wrapped around the rod handle to feel the bite.

Factor in weather, fatigue, distractions, etc. I'd much rather rely on a feeling a bite with light, sensitive rod in my hand than depending on line contact with my finger.

Dan

Dan,
I would agree that the variables that you mention affect what an individual fisherman will sense and I will also agree that the line has a very large affect on what is sensed by a fisherman. However, if we are referring to the sensitivity of the rod then in my opinion all of the variables must be eliminated that are not a property of the rod itself. If we are interested in the sensitivity of the rod and what we as rod builders can do to affect the rods sensitivity then only the properties of the rod should be included in the discussion or the thought process.

Ok how about this. The "bump" or bite has to travel up the leader or line, through the guides, through the finish, through the wraps, thorugh the reel seat, up the reel foot and finally into your hand. How much of the vibration do you think is lost? I'm no engineer but I would bet a dang good bit of it.
Now, if your finger is on the line through the retrieve or during the bite, the ame vibration must trave where to get to your finger? Up the line.


But there again, I fish a 6" top water bait all day and when the fish eats, I see it. And if she's big enough I feel the water expolding around the boat.

Mathew,
As the vibration or "bump" travels up the line and through the rod to the fisherman's hand each time it comes to a material that has a different mechanical impedance some of the energy will continue on into the new material and some will be reflected back toward the source. So at each of these points, called discontinuities, some energy is lost. However, as the vibration travels from one material to another, each time it comes to a material with a higher mechanical impedance the amplitude will drop and each time it comes to a material with a lower mechanical impedance the amplitude will increase. How much travels into the new material and how much is reflected is determined by a ratio of the mechanical impedances. How much the amplitude changes is also a function of a ratio of the mechanical impedances of the two materials. Mechanical impedance is determined by the mass density and elasticity of a material.
I know that sounds complicated but it really is not. Think about it and if you have any questions give me a holler.
You are correct that you will feel more if you can get the rod completely out of the picture by holding the line in your fingers.

The amplitude of the vibration will increase or be reduced to a lesser degree at the point of lower mechanical impedance? There is loss in everything. I just don't see how you can have mechanical gain. I thought we were trying to reduce the loss in the system. I am not comprehending actually adding gain. But my background is electronics... Now I am reminded of ads for resonate chambers in handles to increase sensitivity.

Chuck;
This works with acoustic guitars. Why not rods?

Sure, but they won't fit in the rod locker. ;)

This is why it works for guitars: "When the strings vibrate, the vibrations travel through the saddle to the bridge to the soundboard. The entire soundboard is now vibrating. The body of the guitar forms a hollow soundbox that amplifies the vibrations of the soundboard."

We are missing a few of those components on a graphite tube.

Maybe we'll see guides and reel seat advertised as having "a lower mechanical impedance" to increase the amplitude of the fish taking your bait.

I think we need to have the moderators write a script for the word "sensitivity" so that it shows up as gibberish (*@&%$#) so we can't do this anymore. ;)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2010 07:52PM by Chuck Mills.

Chuck,

I thought about making some animations, but rather than reinventing the wheel, this website has animations of the sort of thing Emory is talking about.

[paws.kettering.edu]

EDIT

I should have also noted that the animations are for vibrations in strings, but waves are waves are waves. They have the same properties regardless of the medium.

Joe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2010 08:19PM by Joe Vanfossen.

You have my solem promise I will never the utter the word: S.....Ssss....Sssseeeee.... Ssssseeennn... Sssseeeennnsi..... Ssssseeennsssiii.... Sensitivity - AGAIN!

Joe,
Thank you. That is really a cool site. I hope that people will look at it and think about what they are seeing. And you are right on with your comment about waves being waves being waves.
I would point out though that the site makes a point about the velocity of the waves. When the amplitude increases the velocity decreases and when the amplitude decreases the velocity increases. This is determined by the mechanical impedance that I commented on earlier. But we as rod makers and fishermen do care about the amplitude of the vibrations but we do not really care about the velocity because the velocity under virtually all conditions is too fast for us to be able to sense or detect.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2010 09:30PM by Emory Harry.

Emory,
I understand what you are saying so no need to holler but (and this is a really big but) just because it works on paper doesn't mena it will work in thw world in which we live.
This why it's great to share ideas, you have your way of thinking and I have mine. I really doubt that either can be "proven" right or wrong just matters of opinion, in my opinion.

Matthew,
No, it is not a matter of opinion, it is a question of physics and the difference is the physics can be proven.

The propagation of waves is the basis for every type of electromagnetic, light, or sound communication - including this one. These waves have conformed to paper predictions every time in instances whose number defy imagination. Instant fame and fortune await the person who can create or identify waves which do not behave in ways which are described on paper; anglers included.