How heavy would you go in monofilament if you were using size 3 micro guides?

6 to 10 maybe what you should think about is how big or small a snap or swivel should be

Good Wraps Bob

Marty which brand? They are not all the same -

What kind of a set up - conventional - spiral - casting - spinning

What size tube is required for the tip top -

A good answer to your question will require some more information -

Do you desire to pass any knots through the guides.

Maybe Steve Gardner can chime in - he talked about that some during his micro class at the ICRBE. Even had a nice "upsized" demo.

Would like to see Steve on again - hope he hasn't given up rodbuilding for all the plumbing and tournaments! We never got M&M #6!

To Bill's point - a size 3 in one brand is not the same as a 3 in another.

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I've listed Steve for a presentation at this year's Expo. We are in the process of confirming it.

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Marty,
I use primarily Batson H ring micros. I use size 3 guides for up to 17lb. test Mono, and size 4's for anything heavier. For anything over 15lb. I use a size 5 or 6 tip top.

Scott Sheets
www.smsrods.com

I have used size 3s with some relatively stiff 20 lb fluoro with no loss of distance or accuracy.. They cast fine with the stiff line, but did not pitch well at all.

i use batson 3s w/ a 4 tip w/ 15lb p-line evolution no problem - could go bigger easy.. they don't pass a uni-uni knot.

Regards,
-Justin

Robert, My guess is that the pitching problem you are running into is with the tip size. I had problems pitching w/ the size 3's and 17 or 20 Copoly and Flouro...when I went to a size 6 tip the issues went away.

Scott Sheets
www.smsrods.com

I built a rod with 3s which I was going to use for weightless soft jerkbaits. Using 15# P-line CXX, I can not cast near the distance I can with a "standard" guide setup. I believe the micro's add to much "drag" against the line. With heavier lures I can't tell a difference.

I also have two identical 7' heavy rods for frogs, one rebuilt with #4's and one standard guides (old Allstars) . Side by side comparision with the same reel and 50# braid, the one with micro's will continuously backlash compared to the standard setup when trying to make long casts. I believe it is due to drag against the micro guides.

Don't get me wrong, I love the micro's but in these situations I believe they hamper the performance of the rod. I personally am sticking to 4s and larger.

I'm considering the Forecast guides with the H ring in size 3. The tip ring (because they don't come any smaller) would be a 4. Line would be the softer varieties of 2 to 6 lb mono. When I use braid on UL rods, I never go above 8 lb. I don't use swivels on such rods.

Scott - I went and tested a Zoom Super fluke on 14# Gamma flouro (.014" dia) with a 4/0 hook and no swivel (rig weighs .3 oz) with a curado e7 on a 6'9" rod. My avg cast is over 30 yards with no wind. I'm using size 3mm Batsons.

What is your distance difference between the standard and the micro rod?

What makes you believe the 3mm micros cause too much drag?

How many guides and what the guide train is (ex 6-4-3s, etc)?

Spiral or conventional set up?

(May should move this to a seperate post)

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I knew I would upset some people with my post but I do not know what else to attribute this to.

Alex - Have you compared your cast with a standard rod or are you just stating the distance your casting?

I am throwing a Zoom Super Fluke (white) and a 4/0 Mustad EWG with no swivel ( not sure of actual weight) with a Shimano Chronach 100 (the old pearl ones) on a 6'-6" MH rod with a 6-5-4-3-3-3-3-3 w/4 tip top. This is a conventional (no spiral) setup.

I haven't taken actual measurements. Just casting towards the same target and there is a definite difference. I would guess around 5 yards difference.

If you think of the physics of it, line passing thru a 3mm will make more surface contact with the guide than line passing thru a 6mm hole therefore creating more friction.

Like I stated earlier, I don't see an issue with heavier lures.

Like has been asked -- what are you using this rod for - fish-line etc. Give some info and maybe people can help.

If 3's don't work go 4's, test sets of guides until you find what works for you --- don't just use a size guide just because every one else is using them.

Bill - willierods.com

Please don't misconstrue my questioning as being "upset" - far from it. I think we all have an opportunity to learn here. You peaked my interest more than anything.

I guess I don't see the physics the same way - but that's not my strong suit. Maybe an engineering type can weigh in here.

In my mind, friction on wet line on a wet ring is a very small amount. I think you are going to have line to guide contact regardless of size. To me, with my flawed logic, a .014 diameter line is going to have very close to the same amount of surface area contact in a 3 ring as a .014 dia line in a 6 ring. If contact is same, friction and drag would be the same. If the line flows through the center of a 6 ring, why wouldn't flow through the center of a 3 ring? Again, I'm the first one to admit my logic is probably very flawed.

We are throwing very close to the same rig, only different hooks. I just grabbed a Gammy worm hook.

It's been a while now since I did side by side comparisons, but I did quite a few back when I first started on micros and my micro rods casted further Could be I don't know how to use larger guides anymore or I subconsciously made the micros perform better.

For clarity's sake, have you done your standard vs micro comparison using the same exact blank (ie, tie it up with standards, strip, tie up with micros)?

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Scott and Alex,

The friction between the guides and rings when casting is very small. Friction requires a force perpendicular to the contact surface, and if you think about it, that force should be pretty small when casting. The place that energy can be robbed from the line when casting is when the line is getting choked down, but I personally haven't found there to be much of an issue there when using low profile Shimanos, even with a 3mm guide. Maybe there is and I haven't noticed it.

Scott,

When it comes to a rod wanting to backlash when trying for distance, you may be over powering the rod. I know it isn't a frog rod, but my crankbait rod has this very problem. I have to use a much slower casting stroke than I normally would use to get the best distance out of that rod. The problem here is an optimal energy that you can put into your cast for the rod blank. When you put in too much energy, the rod gets dissipated as vibrations in the rod that the rod must dampen.

The extra vibration in the rod may be changing the line path enough to cause issues with the smaller guides we are using in the butt section of micro builds. The line may be stacking up behind that first guide and robbing the line of energy on its way through leading to the backlashing.

Perhaps your standard guide frog rod requires the extra energy in the cast due to the inertia of the heavier guide train on the cast and your micro build requires a slightly softer casting stoke. And perhaps a different guide train something along the lines of a 10 6 4 smallest guides setup may perform better for you where the line doesn't get choked down as quickly.

These are some of my observations and may give me some more things to think about in my own builds.

Joe