Here ye, Here ye, Attention one and all. I have one simple question! In reguards to a post (Rumor-Part 2)I have read with great concern of how hard it is to compete with the big guys who are now using your developments in rodbuilding to attract new customers.
How can they sell rods for those prices after rewraping all those guides? How! They buy thier compoents in large quanites. They get deep discounts for the large amounts they buy.Its the same thing Wal-mart and Home Depot has been doing in small towns all accross America.If you were able to get your compoents for the same price, what would thqt do for your profit margin? Neither of these is the question I have for you. I want to make it perfectly clear that this is only a survey. You do not have to coment, just a yes or no. This is just a survey.
And the question is: If it was possible to approch the compoent manufactures directly and receive those same discounts, WOULD YOU JOIN A CO OP.

Your suggestion of a "co-op" would hurt the distributors that do so much to keep us going ... so absolutely not.

If it weren't for them, we wouldn't be having an Open House in Orlando on Saturday. We probably wouldn't have the ICRBE or RodMaker magazine either. The current system of manufacturer, distributor, dealer and retail consumer is a great model ... flawed as it may be.

Although, major manufacturers do enjoy the ability to purchase at a lower cost - they EARN that right. Their overhead is greater, their investment is higher and their exposure is much more significant.

BTW, if you want discounts from the distributors ... buy more product. I know for a fact that additional discounts, beyond wholesale, are available when you reach deep into your pockets.

In addition, there are some significant savings available at ICRBE each year. Quite honestly, if someone wanted to do so, they could attend the show and buy enough product to keep them going all year ... and at a hefty discount.

There is more than one way to skin the cat ... and without damaging the existing distribution system.

I agree 100% with Jim!!!! I don't think that price has much to do with wether a person buys a custom rod or not. IMO, 5% of the fishing public will buy a custom rod and it's NOT because of price. Do you think that choice of thread color is going to take any of your customers away?? Judging by the post from the bass rod builder's, most are minimalists and us only black thread anyway

Why should we bypass the suppliers that have supported us and not only kill their business, but put the screws to the hobby builders (who probably outnumber the "pro" builders) by limiting their access to components.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2009 11:58PM by Mike Barkley.

Just curious, but what kind of price point are you aiming to hit? The $79 off the shelf stuff? Even if you COULD get all the parts for $25, is $54 for assembly enough to make you want to even get involved? I think the "semi-custom, micro'd" rods you're referencing were several hundred dollars, no? Although O.E.M pricing could be 30%, 40% or even 50% below normal "wholesale", you're still talking 500-1000 sets of the SAME guides, the SAME grips, the SAME reel seat, blanks, etc... to access that kind of pricing. even if you COULD pull that kind of buy off, is it worth tying up that kind of money in inventory to make another $50 a rod? You'd better be making a LOT of rods for that math to work.

Even buying as a "co-op", you'd need to order quantities of the SAME parts to get the big discounts. Not five sets of this for builder #1, 25 sets of something else for builder #2, 50 sets of something else for builder #3, etc... It doesn't work that way. BIG quantities, mill direct is the only way you'll see the deep, deep O.E.M. type pricing.

Mark Griffin
[]
C&M Custom Tackle
San Dimas, California

you might want to find a manufacturing forum. this one is a Custom Rod forum

Blank and component prices are the lowest they've ever been - dealer margins shrink every year due to continued discounting by folks who shouldn't be in the business to begin with. Any manufacturer that would sell to a custom rod buying group co-op is cutting his dealers' throats.

The reason people will pay large sums for commercially made rods is because the commercial rod companies have invested heavily in building their brand image. They are selling sizzle, not steak, and the consumers eat it up. Most custom rod builders do build a better rod than most commercial rod enterprises, but custom builders in general do a very a poor job of building their own brand image. They don't know how to market and advertise.

..................

Thank you but no. As a builder I have spent lots of time and money cultivating a clientele and I have established accounts with several of the sponsors on this board so that I qualify for their additional discounts. I maintain some might say a (too) large inventory of parts on hand. Establishing individual accounts allows me to purchase smaller quantities of components (ie: not 50 of the same part at a time) with a wider variety (ie: 10-20 different rod blanks at a time). I remember thinking that starting a local co-op might be beneficial then I did a local "what do you need" survey among the local rod builders (only 4 of us locally) and we each wanted / needed different styles of guides, different makers of blanks, various colors of threads while the others in the group did not. I think this tracks with Mark's comments above

ABSOLUTELY NO! For all the same reasons stated above. A reduction in price of my components is not worth losing the suppliers and relationships I have today.

First of all Custom rod designers builders are well above the norm when it comes to building a better rod. I am not talking about fancy wraps ether. A custom designer must understand all fa-sits of rod designing. Think of it this way a custom car designer does not compete with the big 3 car makers. Anyone can build a rod. It is what you do with that rod that makes a big diffence

Good Wraps Bob

Any supplier based business, rod building included is based on very secure, good quality suppliers. If you are running a business, as a business, and are building, then persue wholesale pricing. There are a few things you must do first. Setting up a business takes a few steps. Your volume will dictate the pricing you will recieve from the suppliers. If you are a hobby builder, not building for customers, there are a lot of suppliers at the left who will give you real good pricing on excellent products also.
I own a couple businesses, and they are all different. I own a small lure company. We make a few, and carry a few lines of good quality baits. We buy in the bracket pricing which we deserve. That is a good thing. Bass Pro shops will buy cheaper than we can. So will Walmart. But neither carry the products we carry. The same is with the rods we build. We are newer in the rod building than most on here. We seek out good quality, fair suppliers. Excellent quality and service is a must. They give the best possible price they can, or our volume deserves. Wether it is a wholesale or retail arrangement, your situation will dictate a lot of how the supplier handles you as a customer. Not how his price brackets are set up. If you are in to building a lot of rods for customers, you will seek your level. Everyone is in the same boat here. A supplier forced to give his product away, or forced to not be profitable goes away.
The suppliers on here represent the quality supply management that we all look for in suppliers. Build the rod, price it accordingly. Enjoy. Trust me, price isn't everything. So a blank costs $5 more, ok, big deal. When you get to the big volumes, your pricing will change accordingly.
Kyle Robinson



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2009 10:41PM by Kyle Robinson.

Thank you all who read and responded to my question. It was not intended to provoke harsh feelings or to cause a stir. Before I posted that question, I read some posts having to do with Kistler, Skeet reese, GLOOMIS not selling anymore blanks and some of the replys sounded negative or sour that a larger business was having thier way. The only reason I used the term co-op was because I remember hearing that here in NJ due to the impact Home Depot and Wal-mart made on the small mom&pop hardware stores, they had to form a co-op to be able to compete. By posting that questing, it was like taking an EKG to check the heart strenght of the rodbuilding industry. Now the only bad thing is that in a 24 hr period over 400 hits took place but only 10 responded.Out of those 10, Kyle gave the best explanation of whats business like behind the doors of a small rod shop. I can only hope that the rest of those 400 plus readers are thinking along the same lines as the 10 responders.
Thank you again,
Dennis J. Danku

I think Kyle probably did have the best explanation - very straight forward and in a business sense. Money dictates business relationships once you get to a certain volume. If I am buying components here and there for a rod or two a month, I'm looking for who I like doing business with and trying to send business certain places. But when I'm ordering guides 400 at a time (one size), handles 25 - 50 at a time, etc - the picture changes and we start looking at money closer. 50 handles @ $1 cheaper adds up fast.

I love the idea of a co-op. Biggest issue I see is having enough variety to stop folks from constantly still having to place other orders outside of it.

One thing you could consider is if you know you are going to use X blanks, X guides, etc in a year - you could pool with other builders to place a bulk order and then split it up. I know I was looking at doing this with a couple special order type prefab handles. I didn't have enough for the minimum but once I had a couple others go in with me, we were able to meet the minimum easily and we were getting a pretty decent price because of the number of pieces.

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AD

Oh, so a co-op has already been tested.I hope this did'nt happen at the time Clemens and Midland Tackle decided to close thier doors. I used to go to Midland tackle up until He retired.On one of my last visits to the shop it was almost all cleaned out compared to the weekend before.When I asked where all his stock went, He said someone from down South bought it all except for the old fiberglass blanks he still had in the racks.Now,do you think this could have been done by a co-op or someone who was going to flip this stuff. After all, who could possiably use the amount of stuff that would fill a boxcar.Most imporntant, who got hurt.

Dennis this may help I live i the Pacific NW (Washington State)I live 40 miles from the Pacific Ocean and have 4 major rivers less than 30 minutes from my house, plus a few lakes . So when I started out back in the 70's I concentrated on building one specific rod for each area. This way I could keep my inventory down. I started out as a rod repair shop, so I had an idea what the fisherman who stopped by for a fish report were looking for or used.. I never competed with a big box store. I was always there to fix or replace a problem. (I never out sourced any thing), except broken warranty factory rods or a factory bank. I was one of the lucky few in this business. I lived less than 2 hours from major manufactures and suppliers. This way I was on top of what was going on in the industry. I recommend you find a nitch and expand on it. What also helped me was writing (Wife did that ) a few fishing articles explaining why I used the rods I used and have them published in a local state spots fishing paper. In this business you have to find a hook that no one uses and expand on it. Look what Acid Rods has done for the spiral wrap. That style has been out there for at least 60 years but it never took hold, tell now, everyone is building one

Good Wraps Bob

Dennis,
I am one of the other 400 who have read this thread. I am a new hobby builder. I build and repair rods for members of the bass club I am a member, plus repair of my own, rods. Only 1 out of +/- 20 (that I use during the year) of which I have built. As there is a learning curve with knowing how and being able to build a rod, there is a learning curve with buying, (IMO). I have spent my monies with several of the sponsors of this site. I bought some Baston blanks from one of the sponsors and got a discount without asking. I also got some calls made to Batson by the sponsor to help me with a rod built for a fisherman who had some physical problems with a bad shoulder. A crappie fisherman. I am just finishing the rod, but the fisherman is tickled to death with the rod. I did not ask for the discount nor the call to Batson. Will I order from them again? Just as soon as I build up enough rod quanity to cut my shipping cost. I don't know if I will get any discounts on my next order, but I will MAKE another order with the sponsor. My quantities are very small compared to the gentlemen who commented above, but I would have to pass on a CO-OP if given the opportunity. It's hard to put a price on the help I have received.

Alex, Bob, And Mark, Thank you for your additional remarks but I have to apologize for letting this thread go out in left field. I guess I used the wrong analogy to explore the mindset of the rodbuilding community. My origanal post was top heavy in reguards to buying compoents in an unethical way.I cant blame you for your "call to arms" on that one.
With my second post I tried to redirect your attention to my actual intent which was to find out what caused some responders to show scorn of others and thier dealings. Was something going on behind the scenes that was privi to only those in the industry.
I can tell you one thing,by the tale of the tape, your EKG says you've got a strong heart.
Thank you,
Dennis J. Danku

Not really a co-op but Clemens Tackle formed a buying club which allowed anyone to buy at either wholesale or less no matter what their level of business was. I think it cost $50 to join per year. So under the name of "B. Creed" or something, the club was launched, builders paid their $50, and then Clemens shut their doors. Nobody was ever able to find the "B. Creed" individual who supposedly had their money. Somebody made a killing on that buying club but it was not the builders who joined it.

The lesson I took from this was that any sort of buying co-op or club has to be operated by somebody. Who is that person and what do you know about them? It pays to be cautious. Never let the lure of a lower price blind you to good old fashioned common sense. If it sounds too good to be true it probably is.

Richard, Thank you for that info. I remember the offer of joining that club but, never heard of those results. Yes, sometimes a good thing could be too good to be true.
Thank you