Hello all. I've been trying a few minor changes to my normal spinning setups on a recent build, another Lamiglas IMP 904 and wondered how it compared to others. I don't need anyone to divulge any secrets but would like to know the distance some of you get casting 1/4 oz on a spinning outfit. I know my weight is a little light for my blank but that is due to my casting area (it's a rocket at 3/8 to 3/4). Anyway, The blank is 7'6" with a Shimano 2500 stradic using 14 lb Sonic Braid with 1/4 oz and I'm at the point where I max out at 130' to 135' consistently. I thank you very much if you can provide me some outside examples to compare it to.

Steve

I can't help you there as I don't use that blank but you may need to specify WHAT lure you are using. 1/4 oz kastmaster casts a lot further than a 1/4 oz wacky rigged rubber worm.

Mo

Thanks Mo, Maybe I should have specified my casting weight a little more. My test casts have been with a bare 1/4 oz weight, no lure or bait. (I've used heavier but don't have that kind of room in my backyard) This is not to represent actual use, just looking for another comparative baseline for test casting and wondering if I could possibly look to get more distance. Thanks again, Steve

I get about 145 to 150 feet with a particular 6'6" rod and 1/4 ounce casting plug. This is with 6lb mono.

Not really sure this anything close to apples to apples, however.

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I don't really need apples to apples, just a given weight from point A to point B. You hear a lot about test-casting around here but numbers are rarely included. I may have to find a field to throw an appropriate weight. Thanks Tom and any others who care to contribute.

Steve

Just curious - not a lot of data on spinning rods - some - The 135 ft sounds pretty good for the 1/4 oz and is "out there" considering the line stretch and hook set capabilities - The 135 is on the low range for long throw crank bait rods using mid range lure wt - it is highly acceptable if you are working on the bottom end of the lure wt range for the blank.

One thing I would like to know - you referred to casting like a rocket with 3/8 oz - what distance can you get at 3/8 oz -

It may be that you have the "ideal" set up for that particular blank.

Casting distance is determined by the energy possessed by the lure at time of release minus losses. If you are getting desired results on the higher lure weights your system losses may be fine. Furthur tweaking of guide size and spacing may have little effect on improvements in casting distance in lower lure weights. I am thinking that the distance in your specific case is related to blank characteristics and loading.

At present when doing set up distance casting testing if am choosing the mid point of the reccommended lure wt range by the blank manufacturer -

Thanks Bill.

At 3/8 or heavier it casts past my current testing area (and into the neighbor's backyard) so I don't have accurate measurements for that weight.
I am quite satisfied with the distance right now but the gears were turning late last night so I wanted to ask. The rod won't see regular use below 3/8 oz or past 100'... but it's nice to know. Thanks again

Steve

There is a sweet spot regarding the lure weight for any rod blank. Yours appears to be 3/8th ounce. The further you move, up or down, away from that amount, the more your overall distance will decrease.

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While not able to help with a casting distance example, I would like to add some related discussion and see where it goes. My concern is with handle length related to blank length and lure weight. When Tom talks about a "sweet spot" for a blank, my engineering background suggests that for any built being blank, handle length AND lure weight are part of the equation determining sweet spot. There was a discussion here recently in which trebuchets were brought up related to fly rod balance, and someone suggested the analogy wasn't quite proper in this context. But the analogy is appropriate when considering casting distance and reel placement -- the principles of lever arm and throw weight do apply. For example, placing the pivot point of a trebuchet very near the driving weight (or the reel seat very near the butt) gives potentially great mechanical advantage -- small movement of the weights (rod butt) result in large movement, or velocity, of the load being thrown -- but you need to exert a tremendous force to take advantage of this configuration or be content throwing a very small projectile. Conversely, moving the pivot point (reel seat) nearer the load being thrown reduces the force needed to throw this load -- you can throw a large load but the resulting velocity is minimal. I'm sorry for the brief description, but I don't what to go on any further with background.

So my question to other rod builders out there is this: How do you determine where to position the reel seat to get maximum performance out of a blank you're building? There is a lot of discussion about guide placement, etc., but not so much about reel seat placement. And further, doesn't it (reel placement) also depend on what you plan to throw within the range of the blank? Some blanks are rated for 1/2 to 2 oz, for example, and I daresay that I feel there should be different placement to throw 1/2 oz effectively compared to 2 oz! Is this part of everyone's test casting procedure when trying to determine guide placememt and just not mentioned?

Am I off base here, or do others share this concern?

Thanks.

Bil

Bilgee

I was also wondering the same thing. I have only built a hand full of rods and I just mimiced other rods I own.

I position my reel seat to allow me to do what I need to do to fight the fish. Each scenario will be different, but I don't position my reel seats based on where I want them to be for a specific casting weight range.

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I am anxious to see the reply to the reel seat location myself, being new to this, right now my reel seat placement is usually determined by the length and style of handle i decide on using, split grips being the exception, i normally have a 4 to 5" spacing.

Basically I place the reel seat according to how the rod is going to be used. Most of the time (bass rods here) a 9 or 10" grip is sufficient, with the occasional longer or shorter. Balance and useability come into play - this impacts lure presentation - part two of the rod equation (#1 - cast, #2 - working lure, #3 - bringing in the fish).

To give an example though of what you are referring to Bil -

Swimbaits - long handle desired for pinning the rod between elbow and side to eliminate or reduce fatigue cranking these things all day. One way to help is to extend the effective length of the rod - going to see dedicated swimbait rods in the 8' range - would a 7' work? yes. But because of the long handle, you are losing a lot of effective length on the blank - so lengthen that part to bring it back into balance between the three roles of the rod.

The focus here is finding the compromise between making long casts (needed) and "fishability". It would wear your arm out cranking this all day with a short handle.

Also, 9 - 10" handle allows enough space to get good two handed casts off - more control on the rod when casting.

Just my thoughts.

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I would say much of that has to do (as Alex was suggesting) with what you are looking for in performance, and the technique for which the rod is being used.

Examples;
I chose 8ft rods for most of my large crank bait uses (bass fishing); I also fish with the tip down most of the time. In fact often having the tip submerged. Which allows me to get crank baits deeper for when the fish seem to be a little deeper then I can reach with a standard retrieve.
Being 5’8” tall. With an 8 ft. rod I can submerge 3 ft of rod, so baits that normally run 16 ft will now run 19 ft deep. Which is quite effective for the when the fish have backed off a little deeper due to fishing pressure or other circumstances
So it doesn’t make sense for me to go to the longer rod, just to add a few inches to the handle for a little improved balance.
In effect every inch I add to the handle is and inch I loose in depth. On the opposite side of this is the case Alex was covering were you are throwing larger swim type baits that fatigue is more of a consideration then depth and a longer handle is more appropriate.

The same with Pitching sticks. Part of the performance I am looking for is a lighter tip thus improving my strike detection; I accomplish this by using lighter and smaller guide trains.
And additional bracing during the sudden hook sets, and fighting fish out of heavier cover. For this I will add some length to the handle, which also improves the balance by moving the reel forward.

To be honest I build rods to get the most casting distance that can be achieved with the techniques they are being designed for and as a measure of how well I have set up the guides. But “maximum casting distance” is very seldom at the top of my priorities when compared to other performance benefits

When building for clients I take the time to find out what they are looking for in performance as their requirements may be completely different then mine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2009 12:06PM by Steve Gardner.

Thanks all for the replies. It seems I'm not the only one who's concerned.

Specifically related to the last reply from Steve Gardner, does building a blank to attain maimum casting distance impact performance? If so, can you tell me how? I'm not doubting you, however I'm altogether relatively new at rodbuilding compared to many of the contributors to this forum and I want to hear others' thoughts on the subject.

Contrasted to bass fishing, my specific concern is throwing arificials in the surf. Often, we have to get to fish beyond the surf line, and "maximum distance" becomes a concern. Once more, I know folks give a lot of consideration to guide selection and placement for achieving distance, but, for a given blank, how does one determine reel placement for maximum distance? Test casting, I'm guessing!

Bilgee

Personally I do NOT determine reel placement for maximum distance. For me reel placement depends totally on handle length desired, and location of how I want to hold the rod/reel while fishing or fighting the fish, not casting. I have several short handled rods that will cast just as far as a handles designed to be used with both hands.
Yes I design my rods for maximum distance for the fishing technique being used. With some of those techniques such as pitching I am satisfied to be able to pitch 90 to 100 ft., especially when fishing grass were every hooked fish hast to be dragged back through such.
For crank bait rods to only cast that far would be disappointing.

To answer you specific question;
"Does building a blank to attain maximum casting distance impact performance? If so, can you tell me how?"

Yes! Sometimes it can improve performance and some times diminish it, and some times it’s in combination with the line used.
If I need to cast past the surf as in your case, then it is an improvement in performance to have "maximum casting distance"

If casting “past the point to effectively set the hook”; then I would consider that a diminishment in performance.
I had this problem with a crank bait rod that would just about dump the spool on a long cast. For two years I lost ½ the fish hooked on that rod and could ever figure out why until one came up and rolled backwards. At that point I watched the baits hook roll out from under its upper lip. I realized that it was just caught in the u-bend of the hook with out me ever pulling the point through. After that time I switched over to Floro which has different stretch characteristics then Mono and solved the problem. I cold cast it far enough that rubber band effect of mono was not allowing me to get a good hook set.

At the same time I want maximum distance to allow for a crank bait to stay at its maximum diving depth for as long as possible. It may not directly improve the rod’s performance but it improves the baits performance by keeping it in the strike zone longer.

But you have to take into consideration what you are casting also;
I have a friend who surf fishes to big drum fish using 3 and 4 pound weights to get it out to his target areas. With the type and style of casting he does to obtain this. I would say that yes handle length has a major part in obtaining maximum distance.

The trouble with building for any one aspect of rod use, is that while it may excel at that aspect, it may then be less than you'd hoped for in other areas. For instance, the rods used to set tournament casting records aren't necessarily very good rods for fighting a fish.

If you need to cast, retrieve, fight a fish and bring the rod home in the same number of pieces you started with, you'll have to compromise in a variety of ways in order to have something that winds up being pretty darn good all the way around.

I can tell you that building light, as long as you don't undermine the needed durability for what you're doing, is one way to improve nearly any aspect of a fishing rod.

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I had a talk with an genttlemen that told me seat placement was just as important a guide placement. He had told me that a seat to far up the rod is like grabbing the rod to lift a fish in the baot wich could result in a broken rod. Could this be possible?

Steven I have a shop full of finished micto rods that will be shipped out on Monday - its raining and the weather will be horrible down de bayou tomorrow - if you head off toward Main Pass you will get beat up! Drive up tomorrow after you eat meatballs or a shrimp po boy - we can check out the placement of reel seats to your hearts content!

Gon Fishn

Steven,

Yes.

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