Fly line weight and lure weight are the same thing - weight. The rod doesn't know if you're loading it with sinkers, line, lure or a ball of dough. Weight is weight (provided the same gravitational pull is in effect).

The URRS has a component for helping you figure lure weight ranges. But most spinning and casting blanks already come with that information.

Page 16, RodMaker Volume 10 #4 has the instructions for taking the TP and PR measurements. Look in the sidebar on the left hand side of the page.

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Appreciate the guidance toward the article, but I have read the material which is what created the questions I have regarding TP, PR, etc. I’m trying to use this as designed, so I’d appreciate answers to questions as opposed to redirection.

Maybe I’m the only who’s had trouble digesting. If so, I’m more than willing to take this offline to discuss in greater detail.

So I’ll give it another shot:

How do you measure PR? – Take the measurement of weight needed to deflect half the rod length (assumption based off the definition on the sidebar of page 16 - there are no specific directions)? If so, again I run into the issue of data not being available due to the graduation on table 2, page 19 so how can I really use this measurement.

Questions on measuring TP (generated from the sidebar direction on page 16):
- “Tip overhanging the edge” – is there a good starting point? Should I just start with an inch of tip and start adding weight?
- “When the minimum value has been determined…” – how do I know I reached the minimum? Am I taking measurements and plotting them on a chart of ERN vs AA to see a minimum number on a curve?

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I wasn't redirecting - you asked how to take the measurement and the article clearly spells out how to do it.

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Measuring PR - someone else was helpful enough to offer me some assistance. Good there. They provided me with some information in another article which made it make sense. Thanks! That's what I thought the board was about - glad to know it is out there.

The article does not address it in a manner appropriate for all readers or information is missing or I would not have a question.

Last time - I'll ask once more for CLARIFICATION so I can use the measurements accurately:

Questions on measuring TP (generated from the sidebar direction on page 16):
- “Tip overhanging the edge” – what is a good starting point? Should I just start with an inch of tip overhang and start adding weight?
- “When the minimum value has been determined…” – how do I know I reached the minimum? Am I taking measurements and plotting them on a chart of ERN vs AA to see a minimum number on a curve?

I would also like to reiterate Scott's earlier question related to ERN computation. How is it done so we can take all the guessing out of it. Both you (Tom) and Walt came up with the number so obviously there is some way to do it. If not sharing, where/who is the best resource available when I pass 303.5?

I've politely asked and actively sought help on something being promoted and apparently believed in deeply by some and intended for people to use. I'm not sure I understand your motivation for failing to discuss further details than those contained in the article. Can we take the high road and work together to get me on the same page as you?

Who knows, maybe by seeing the issues someone has with understanding the original articles, it could help with the development of better material to fit a variety of audiences. Easier to understand information will increase it's open acceptance and correct application.

I look forward to your help clarifying this information Tom.

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From Volume 10 #4, the Universal Rod Rating System:

To Make the TP/Tip Power Measurement:

5. Repeat this procedure several times with different lengths of rod tip protruding. Six inch intervals are sufficient. Remember the required distance deflected will be different for each change in length.



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Back up to #1:

"1. Lay the rod on a flat surface (table) with the tip overhanging the edge."
- Where does it specify starting point? I understand six inch increments after the starting point. Is the info inferring to start with 6" from the tip? That is not clearly stated, so should it have been assumed/inferred?

I missed your quote of the appropriate passage or you missed some other questions:
- “When the minimum value has been determined…” – how do I know I reached the minimum? Am I taking measurements and plotting them on a chart of ERN vs AA to see a minimum number on a curve?

ERN computation - How is it done so we can take all the guessing out of it. Both you (Tom) and Walt came up with the number so obviously there is some way to do it. If not sharing, where/who is the best resource available when I pass 303.5?

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Uh, my guess is that if we are talking about six inch intervals, then the first interval would be at six inches.

Until the chart is expanded, why not just use cents past 303? They are the same thing and there is no need to convert unless you are trying to match a fly line to the rod which you cannot do at that point anyway. Since no one else will be giving you ERN figures beyond that point currently, how can it make one iota of difference?

My hope is that the new Loomis people will use cents instead of ERN all the way out. It eliminates a step and amounts to the exact same thing. If they want to add that ERN part in for fly rod to fly line conversion they could do it on those for that purpose.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2009 10:12PM by Richard Kuhne.

Richard -

That's my point - your "guess" or assuming that is what it means - how hard is it to say "Start from 6 inches from the tip" so everyone is on the same page rather than having them infer or guess that's what it means? Easy question. Easy answer. That was all I asked on that.

To set this up: in the URRS, "Above that value, i.e., between 1 and 25, the specifications for ERN, TP, amd PR are identical."

Remember the point of the URRS is not for fly rods. The CCS is still intact for that. The URRS is designed for a host of casting/spinning rods where lure weight, not line weight, is important.

You can use the TP to determine a low weight range and the PR to calculate a higher weight range. So the golden piece (to me) is identifying the individual ERN points for rods over 25 or 303.5 cents. Yes the table shows pounds (more to come on that), but there is an incremental jump by 10s or 25s in ERN and as much as two ounce jumps between lure weights. - prior to 303.5/25 the ERNs step by 1s and the lure ranges step by 1/8 ozs.

This doesn't make sense (to me) without some type of graduated scale which would complicate determining ERN without a formula. (Back to Scott's question about how to determine ERN).

Using the example from the article, a 6:3:10 rod lets you know that rod has a lure range of 3/16 to 1/2. Great data for casting rods - I'm interested now!

Here's where you get your difference when using cents past 303.5 (ERN of 25). Look at the URRS table this way:
- 1-25: the ERN has 1 point increases with 1/8oz lure weight increases per point
- 30-40: a 10 point increase with 1/10 oz lure weight increases per point
- 50 -100: 10 point intervals with 1/5 ounce lure weight increases per point
- 100 - 200: 25 point intervals with 2/25 lure weight increases per point

How can I use data that increases at 4 different intervals - sometimes ascending steps, sometimes decending steps - without knowing how to derive results? How do I know there aren't different graduations within those tiers?

Also if you want to use the Lb measurement on higher power rods there is the infrequent change in # measures. Look at this chain - 2.34, 2.25,3,4,6,7.5... that is the lb steps for ERNs 25,30, 40, 50, 60, 70. Unfortunately a lot of my bass rods are falling in this range with inconsistent step increases. Make estimating very hard. I'm seeing a 25 ERN has 2.34#, a 30 ERN has 2.25#. How can less weight to deflect equal an increase in ERN? Even if that is a misprint, how do you estimate ERN using jumps of 1, 2, and then 1.5# increments (30 -70 ERN)?

To bring this back to my original question - the importance of determining correct TP and PR (and thus ERN since they are equal after 25) are important on a casting rod so I can build a rod for casting the appropriate sized baits. The guys I am building for do use 1 to 4 oz swimbaits, 2 oz sinkers for carolina rigs in 60' of water, etc when bass fishing. So these higher numbers are very relevant in many active casting applications.

To further this, I think you could also judge the results of precisely trimming a rod, prior to making the first cut, if you know how to use this data effectively and correctly. Ironically this was my driving force to understand how to use this system. I thought maybe it would help me find the answer. This would really let you build some very specific custom stuff - stuff perfect for my clientele.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2009 12:16AM by Alex Dziengielewski.

Alex,

You asked, "How do you measure PR? – Take the measurement of weight needed to deflect half the rod length (assumption based off the definition on the sidebar of page 16 - there are no specific directions)? If so, again I run into the issue of data not being available due to the graduation on table 2, page 19 so how can I really use this measurement.
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If you will read my first article, I stated everything could be traced back to weights measured in grains, and that is still so. Just remember, One cent = 38.61 grains.

If you will look at the chart (Table 2) in the URRS article, you will see Column 1 lists IP (Intrinsic Power) in units of kilograins. i.e. grains/1000.

The rest is simple arithmetic.

303.5 cents = (303.5)cents x (38.61) grains/cent = 11718 grains = 11.72 kilograins. All this equals, by definition of the method, an ERN, TP, or PR value of 25

1. If you want to go higher, use any weight you wish (pounds, ounces, washers, sinkers or what have you.
2. Convert that weight to grains.
3. Divide that number by 1000 to get kilograins.
4. Find the value(kilograins) in the first column of Table 2.
5. Using the values in the second column, determine ERN, TP, or PR (depending on how you took the measurement).
6. Interpolate if you wish. The plot of IP vs ERN is linear between each of the defined intervals. However, it is not linear over any extended range. There is no constant which will allow you to simply multiply the number of cents by it to calculate ERN—don't bother looking or complaining. Blame it on the AFTMA, They defined fly line weights and they are not linear. Sorry!

The CCS and URRS are simply tools of measurement. If you find them useful, use them—if not, don't.
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"Questions on measuring TP (generated from the sidebar direction on page 16):
- “Tip overhanging the edge” – is there a good starting point? Should I just start with an inch of tip and start adding weight?
- “When the minimum value has been determined…” – how do I know I reached the minimum? Am I taking measurements and plotting them on a chart of ERN vs AA to see a minimum number on a curve?"

The simple answer to that last question is YES.

Start at about 2.5 ft. and make the measurement, then measure at six inch intervals on either side until you find the lowest value and the numbers start to rise again. The lowest value is the TP. There is no maximum value as that would correspond to the ERN.

You can simplify things by not measuring AA and simply draw a graph of “Cents Required to Deflect Protruding Rod 1/3 of Its Length” vs “Distance from Tip”
This will produce what I call the TAG (Tip Analysis Graph). The TP corresponds to the lowest value. This will be explained in a future article for the benefit of those who wish to still better characterize their rods. These graphs will also include the RAG (Rod Analysis Graph), the FAG (Ferrule Analysis Graph) and the BAG (Butt Analysis Graph. Stay tuned.
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You use the same “relative scale” of numbers for all measurements. It is the dimensions (IP, ERN, and PR) which indicate which scale you wish to refer to. There is no formula for the conversion. That is why you must get your values from the Rosetta Stone or calculate them. You can and probably should interpolate within each set of defined limits for greater precision.
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I relate IP to a factor in fighting a fish intuitively. I know I need a stronger rod to land a salmon than I need to land a 6” trout. The CCS merely gives one a means of measuring the relative power of a rod. For larger fish, e.g. a salmon, I would suggest using the PR value as it would appear to me to be more relevant.
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Use lead weights. I believe they come in ounces and pounds.

That 2,25 value may be a misprint, I'll have to redo the math.

I hope that answers most of your questions. If not, we can try again.
Bill



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2009 02:06AM by Bill Hanneman.

Dr. Bill - short answer - Thank you.

I appreciate the answer on TP - "Start at about 2.5 ft. and make the measurement, then measure at six inch intervals on either side until you find the lowest value" makes a lot more sense for me. I wanted to be sure I am determining my data as close to your method. As with any testing, different methods can cause different results, possibly negating the results or skewing them at the least.

I'm still troubled regarding the jumps in ERN after 25, I'm going to have to play with that some. I'd really like to see some closer numbers there, but sounds like they simply don't exist. It's easier to adopt the data when I understand why it's the way it is.

I'm going to play with this tonight. Again, thanks for taking the time for some clarfication.

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Alex,
Thanks for questioning the values for pounds. You are to be commended and are probably the first one to seriously look at the that region of the chart. On rechecking, it is apparent that in converting ounces to pounds, I used an incorrect factor. We all know that one pound equals 16 ounces and consequently the values for pounds should be one sixteenth that of the value for ounces.

I would suggest one simply cross out the "Pounds" column and work with the "Ounces" column. Sorry about that. We will have to issue an errata.

As for ERN values above 25, you must remember that here I (am) was plowing new ground and really had no idea of what the ranges would be useful to anglers. Consequently, I arbitrarily picked numbers and defined ERN values which could be related to weight (cents, ounces, etc) using kilograins as the basic units for the chart.

With these arbitrary limits which, by definitiion, are correct, I could create a relative scale of power which would be applicable to any fishing rod which could be flexed sufficiently.

Now, having these numbers, I expected builders like you could determine and define the best specifications of rods for each type of fishing.

The numbers, themselves were essentially immaterial, as long as they show a relative order of power. e.g.,(ERN=125 denotes a stronger rod than ERN=123)

All I am doing is producing a unique and well defined objective scale which I hope the rod building community finds useful.

Dr Bill - It says a lot about a man who is open to admitting an error. I commend you for that and wish it was more common. The result of that is you strengthening my resolve in learning this system and increasing the soundness of the data. Thanks. I was very close to closing the book and moving on. I didn't want to do that, hence my perseverance.

I'm probably different than a lot of bass rod builders, in that I use a lot of backbouncing, hot shot, popping and some general purpose saltwater blanks to achieve the performance I look for in a technique specific bass rod. Bobby Feazel got me started with that and I have run with it (so credit due to Bobby for making me get out of the Mag Bass box and indirectly pushing me to be better).

The side effect of using these type of blanks is the manf. ratings are not always appropriate. Example - the rod I originally asked for the ERN on is a backbouncing blank I use for jigs and Carolina rigs. Manf rated for a 1 - 4oz lure. That rod will not cast a 4 oz lure effectively IMO. My understanding is backbounce rigs are dropped and dragged, not casted, resulting in a different manf rating based on the intended use.

So then what lure weight will this blank cast effectively? Using the lure rating conversion in the CCS, I come up with .55 - .88. That's close to what I build it for - I will recommend throwing about .6 oz to a full ounce on it, so the .88 is a little low but gets you really close. Having a tool like that will let me figure out which blank to use in a casting application without as much "field testing". Huge money saver - both time and materials.

I'm willing to be a guinea pig for any of this and help define anything needed in areas. I want to make sure I learn things first so I make accurate measurements. I'm not a math whiz, so bare with me!

Maybe we should use letters for any other scales and tables? (joke!) Ready to meet you in person next February at the ICRBE!

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