I am wondering if any of you have noticed an appreciable difference in flycasting with different guide ring materials. I'm really having a hard time deciding between Nanolite, SiC and Alconites for my flyrod build. (9 wt) I would prefer titanium frames since it will be used in saltwater occasionally, but the Alconites "seem" more slick to me than SiC, so I assume they will cast great (better?) with fly line. I actually like alconites better with mono, but there isn't a titanium frame option to consider.

Money really isn't an issue, just looking for the right choice. What do you guys think?

Thanks

You will never find any practical difference between any of those in terms of casting distance. There is very little surface friction between the line and the guides on a cast. Unless you have some good amount of pressure forcing the surfaces (line and rings) against each other, the type friction it would take to make a difference in this situation just isn't going to occur. In fact, if the weight is equal, you could cast just about as far with guides and rings made from paper clips as you can guides holding SIC rings.

The time when the ring slickness and hardness does make a difference is when the line is paying out against a hard running fish. In that instance you do have pressure which forces the line against the rings. For me, this is where you benefit from very smooth, slick rings. Your line will pay out more smoothly and your line will also last longer. But even then, most any quality ceramic these days is pretty slick. Not sure how much if any difference you'll notice between the SIC and Alconite rings.

.............

Keith,
For fly guides you will not notice ANY difference re material. Build the rod with an eye towards the weight you are adding, or not adding, to the blank. REC single-foot Recoils - the lightest. If ceramics go with Fuji Ti SiC's. Personally I only use the REC recoils and sometimes the Fuji's for the 16,12. Or I will go with the Recoils all the way.
Again, other than weight you will not tell the difference in "slippery" performance.
Herb

If you add insert guides to a fly rod your casting distance will decrease.
Unless you have braid or mono running thru the guides you do not require inserts.
For the max casting distance you want the rod to give max tip velocity.
Insert guides are heavier and slow the blank down reducing casting distance.
If you fish for a species that makes long runs into the backing this is where insert guides are the best choice but you give up line casting distance for fish fighting ability.
I have several friends that use ceramic in titanium frames for salmon fishing but they only make 30 - 40 foot casts with sinking lines . The reason for the ceramics is after the fish is hooked it may be quite a while before they see the fly line again. Saltwater fish can also pose the same problems.

Ceramic guides are not necessarily heavier than non-ceramic guides. Plus, they only have half the thread and resulting finish, which often weighs as much as a guide itself.

Weight is obviously important, of course, Much more important to casting distance and rod response than ring type is.

...............

Take a look at the American Tackle Titan guides Ti Frame

Bill - willierods.com

Thanks for the responses.

Bill, I actually am looking at the Titan (ringlocks) as one of the options. Any practical differences between them and the Fuji Ti SiC's?

Price---And the name brand - Fuji

Bill - willierods.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2009 10:51AM by bill boettcher.

Keith,
Look at the Fuji's and any other competitor under a 10 power lens and you won't ask that question again
Herb

If you want to spend the money, but the Fuji's.

It has also been said here that the SIC rings are so hard that they tend to crack ??

Bill - willierods.com

They won't crack unless you do something to crack them. I've used them for years and never had a single one crack. And we'd be talking thousands and thousands of them. No, they're not prone to cracking any more than rods are prone to breaking. Abuse is what breaks rods and cracks guide rings.

..........

Go for the Titan Ringlocks,,,, I love them. I haven't used the REC guides or paperclips but I have used the Titan Ringlocks and they are awesome. Whether it be the light weight or flexibility of titanium or the Nanolite rings, they have performed very well for me. I'll bet even after looking at them with a microscope I would not be deterred from my wholehearted endorsement.

I doubt you will see any measureable difference in distance from just ring materials. I look at it as more of a total package issue. Short foot print, single foot design, light weight, flexible frame material, and a sensible ceramic ring.

As far as durability, any ceramic is susceptible to fracture and yes most incidents occur as a result of "hard use". Over the years I have had cracked/fractured with SiC, but probably just as much as with Hardloy, whether it be the grey-ish, blue-ish, brown-ish, or pink-ish ring versions that Fuji has used. I have also had Hialoy and Zirconias as well. Normal fishing won't damage rings as most issues occur from impact of some sort. I am pretty hard on rods and I haven't had a ton of failure but I hate replacing guides. Funny since my profession allows access to replacement parts easier the most folks. Interestingly enough, the old Fuji BNHG's which I have used longer then any other insert guides, have never been damaged on my rods. The first place ring durability makes a difference is in the manufacturing of the guides. Ceramic rings will break when pressed into the frames especially if a slim or reduced size ring is desired. We prefer a tight-press fit where some factories will opt for more of a glue-bond fit. In this process we ran into issues with some of the harder (and softer) materials holding together. We found that the hard Nanolite inserts allowed us reduce material volume and at the same time hold up to riggers of assembly and "hard fishing" (not to be confused with abuse). Hard to say exactly what contributed to the Nanolite holding up better, maybe the hardness of SIC and the increased porosity of the softer materials allowed easier fracture but the Nanolite won out in everything we considered, including economics. Over all we consider it to be an extremely durable ceramic ring.

Good luck with what ever you choose.

Best Regards,

Darrin Heim
American Tackle Company

I'll second the comment- look at the guides with a 10X jeweler loupe and you'll get a clear sense of answers to your questions. I did and quality difference seemed pretty obvious to me.

Mo

The Product Review & Standards Committee, PRSC of the Custom Rodbuiding Quality Assurance Section, QRQAS, of the Roduilding International Standards Agency, RISA, has been petitioned to utilize future funding from the proposed taxation of all blanks and components purchased worldwide to evaluate the subject matter of guide ring materials and surface finish.

The following company has received a preliminary Scope of Work to perform scanning electron microscope, SEM, evaluations for comparative review of all currently available guide ring materials. It is anticipated that the initial contract for the laboratory investigations shall not exceed $175,000.

The following company has been chosen to perform the testing which is to be followed with a full independent report within three years from the date of contract award.

[www.michmet.com]

All rodbuilders are requested to ask vendors to add an additional 31.25% to the total for all purchases to support this endeavor.

}>

Bill,

I see that you are playing with your medication dosage again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You know what happens when you do that!!!! Lance should be around soon to take you back to the home.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Bill, avoid gators this week!

3D micro analysis - 20 product types - I week guarantee completion - $ 5,000
3 years intensive multi - site practical 'on-water' testing to validate the weeks work in the lab - $170,000
Official RISA observer to validate all tests ............ William Stevens, Chairman- PRSC
OnYa............... Bill
9.9/10

Denis it is necessary to play cards in many different ways to insure pleasure to some and complete confusion to others sitting at the table! The pot is building and at some point the players at the table may again hear ALL IN!

An addenda has beed attached to the original (RFQ) Request For Quotation and submitted to the successful contractor:

Please include an evaluation of the resultant surface hardness and roughness factors reported report which is prefaced by the Abstract presented in this correspondence.

Journal of the American Ceramic Society

Abstract | Full Text: PDF (Size: 1243K) | Citation Tracking

Nanofiber Formation in the Fabrication of Carbon/Silicon Carbide Ceramic Matrix Nanocomposites by Slurry Impregnation and Pulse Chemical Vapor Infiltration

Supported by the National Science Council, Taiwan.

ABSTRACT

The objectives of this work were to investigate the fabrication of carbon-fiber-reinforced SiC ceramic nanocomposites using the slurry impregnation process and the pulse chemical vapor infiltration (PCVI) process and to study the influences of processing parameters of the PCVI process on the microstructure variation of the nanocomposites. In this work, SiC nanosized powder was added to the matrix precursor (silicon powder mixed with phenolic resin), followed by the impregnation of the slurry into the preform. In the PCVI process, to densify the nanocomposites, tetramethylsilane (TMS) vapor mixed with hydrogen was used as the vapor precursor for matrix deposition. Fabrication parameters, such as reactant concentrations, pulse number, and holding time, were studied. Morphologies obtained from various processes were compared.

End Abatract

Responding to Bill in an email I thought I'd include my remarks here,,,

Bill I am offcially in favor of the 30+% taxation on all rod parts. In fact, 15% of which can be paid on individual part purchases and go directly to the part companies to insure a focus on quality standards remain our primary concern. The remaining percentage can go to purchasing credits obtained through a one time yearly payment to a rod component company employee of your choice via check (made out to CASH) money order, or cash. We can refer this as the "Rod Component Company Quality Assurance Incentive Program" or RCCQAIP for short.....

Oh yeah Bill, per your email to me, I wouldn't sit by the mail box waiting for that $25K check to "Gon Fishin" to arrive helping to kick off this endeavour. But, rest assured that we have filed your propsal in the proper location for future reference.

In the mean time we will do our part in increasing the quality of our rod components for all to enjoy.

Keep up the good work!

Darrin Heim
American Tackle Company