I've been trying over the past couple of days to setup a 9 1/2 ft surf rod (rated 1 - 3 oz) with the new guide concept and I'm having some trouble eliminating the line slap on the blank. The reel I'm using is a shimano 4000 stradic with a 20lb flouro shock leader and 15 lb fire line.

I started off the setup with svsg guides size 25 and 16 and then got to a choker and running guides of size 8. Following the instructions in the issue of rodmaker I setup the rod as it stated and took it to the field and the line slap was terrible. I then started moving the guides progressively farther out, about an inch at a time but no matter where the guides were place I never was able to eliminate the line slap. I was able to see the line as it was going through the guides and it seemed to really bunch up against the 25 and i figured that was the reason for the line slap. I then changed out the first guide to a 30 and again setup the rod following the instructions in the magazine. Same problem, terrible line slap. I again began to progressively move the guides out but no matter where I place the guides I can't seem to eliminate the line slap and again it seems that the line is bunching up against the first guide.

I would really love to be able to figure this out since with the small running guides this rod feels VERY light compared to the cone of flight setup that was on it before.

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? I've ordered a size 30 hvsg and 20 hvsg hoping that might help eliminate the problem but based on the instructions and the height of those guides, the placement for the first guide is going to end up being even closer to the reel and one of the main issues I have seen when casting is that the line is really bunching up in the first guide.

What am I doing wrong?

I don't think you want to be moving the guides "out." Make sure the butt guide falls within the distance listed in the article. With the fine diameter Fireline, you may find that a butt guide place just 20 to 21 inches from the reel spool face will be best. A closer butt guide with more height will be better than lower and farther out. Ideally, with that line, you'd want a small ring but very high frame, which sadly will be hard to come by.

One thing, one you mention line slap, are you talking about on the cast, or on the retrieve?

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I am no expert here (and this is an understatement) the first rod I built was a 9' rod with using the same reel. I used the forecast VS3 guides and the butt guide on my rod was a 25. Seems like I ended up with this guide about 22 inches from the reel face and got excellent results. I dont know how the VS3 guides compare to what you are using. I do not use a shock on this rod either. How far is your butt guide from the reel?

This doesn't make any sense to me. A 25 or 30 should be plenty big enough for that setup. Because it's limper, It's actually easier to get braid through smaller guides than it is mono.

I've found the same thing that Tom said: moving the butt guide closer to the reel helps if you're having line slap problems. You'd think it would be the opposite, that moving the guide farther away would be the ticket, but the reverse, in my experience, is true. Doing so might improve things.

If I were in your shoes, I'd keep moving the 30 closer until the line slap problem went away. You could also try a size 25 or even 30 HVSG guide: these have rings that are pretty significantly farther away from the blank than SVSG-style guides. That might help.

If you're absolutely, positively stumped, and can't figure out where to go, as a last resort you can try respooling your reel. I've found that different lines can have very different properties, and Line A might cast great, while Line B slaps the blank so hard you think the finish is going to come off. I've seen this mostly as an issue with mono (different brands have different stiffnesses), and I don't think the differences with braid would be quite as pronounced. But if you're at a loss for what to do, trying another kind of braided line might make a difference. Good luck.

thanks for the input guys. The size 30 guide i tried as close as 17 inches from the spool face to as far away as 38 inches and in every location that i setup the guide I had line slap during the cast, not during the retreive. the shock leader was making the most noise, not surprising given how stiff that is but the fireline was hitting the blank as well. when looking at the line as it was coming off the reel while the sinker was in flight it appeared that the loops in the line were almost stacking up on each other when they were trying to go through the first guide and the line was hitting the blank right where the loops in the line were bunching up against the first guide. From 17 to about 24 inches the line slap was the worst and i was coming up 25 or so yards short on the cast of what the rod was doing before I stripped it. as I moved the guide out to 28 - 30 inches from the spool face it improved but I still had bad line slap and the line bunching up against the first guide was still bad, although not nearly as bad as it was when it was 17 to 24. The casting distance that i was seeing in the 28 - 30 inch locations was a little longer but I was still coming up about 20 yards short. Pushing the guide out any farther than 32 or so inches things seemed to get worse with the line slap of the shocker but the coils weren't stacking up against the guide as badly but the distances were still about 20 yards short of the previous setup.

maybe I'm expecting too much to think that I can acheive the same distances with the NGC and just need to accept the best setup i can find.

I would try it with out a shock leader and see what happens. I don't build my own surf rods to pass a leader any more it seems that the best I could do with a leader were size 12 running guides to tip. i prefer at least a 10 or 8 on concept setups and now I use a 4 ft leader and don't pass the knot through. I cast with at least 4 to 5 ft hanging or the knot an inch or so from the tip. that way I'm not stuck with 12 or even 16 sized guides!
What your seeing might be the leader slowing down when it moves through the guides and the rest of the line is backing up on itself causing the slap. Just an idea!

The location and type of butt guide you have are not exclusive to the NGC. If you used the Cone of Flight system and put the same butt guide on there at the same locations, you'll have the same line slap. The NGC isn't your problem.

This isn't a problem with the NGC - it has to do with your line, the butt guide and the height and/or spacing.

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What blank and what casting weight. are you using?....spot casting or distance (higher speed)casting? What was the configuration of the prior guide set up before you decided to strip it and make it better?

NERB that types with a bar of Ivory soap in his mouth.

Try higher framed guides. The V-frames sit a lot lower to the blank. Y framed guides will lift the line off the blank more, and the slap won't be as bad. For a 4000 Stradic, a Y framed 25 for the butt guide should be fine.

Also, check the length of your leader. You mention shock leader. A shock leader is to take the strain of casting a heavy weight, so is usually a rod length and a bit, leaving a couple wraps on the spool. A bite leader or leader to guard against abrasion doesn't need to be as long. What weights are you casting? 20lb leader and 15 lb Fireline shouldn't be all that problematic at all.

The rod is an older breakaway 1145 rated to 4 oz. I'm using the rod for light bottom fishing duties primarily and for throwing sting silvers. i use this rod at hatteras and at holden beach which is a fairly flat beach requiring a long cast to reach any fish so the casting I'm doing is for distance with 2 - 4 oz. The reasons for the shock leader are due to the distance casting and also because i like having the flouro between the braid and the rig/lure for any line shy fish. The shock leader length is about 12 - 13ft, enough for my drop, length of the rod, and a minimum of three revolutions around the spool. I've ordered some hvsg guides to try out and will see if that resolves the issues.

Tom, the original butt guide was a size 40, if what you are saying above "If you used the Cone of Flight system and put the same butt guide on there at the same locations, you'll have the same line slap. The NGC isn't your problem." Do I take this to mean that I should go back to a size 40 butt guide since i can't seem to find any placement for a 25 or 30 that resolves the line slap? if so how do you step the guide sizes down to size 8 or 10 running guides? Probably a rhetorical question since it is supposed to be based on guide size/height but i feel like i would just be introducing the same line stacking problem at the second or third or choker guide since i'm not choking the line down with the butt guide. i just can't seem to find a placement where choking the line with a 25 or 30 butt guide will eliminate the line slap. Also, based on the instructions a 40 butt guide is going to be REALLY close to the spool 15 or 16 inches. Is that going to cause a problem?

What I'm saying is that the same size guide, used in either the NGC or the Cone of Flight System, is going to give the same results as far as line slap goes.

You can try a 40, although I think it may increase the line slap even more as it will allow larger coils to carry further up the rod. But, if the additional height ends up helping, you can certainly use the 40 in the NGC system. Just plot the transition guides along a straight line path running from the spool to the choker guide as before, and then the choker and running guides can all be the smallest size that will still pass your shock leader knot easily. Nothing really changes other than that you're starting with a larger guide. The NGC can accomodate any size butt guide.

If you could find a very high frame 30 or even 25, you'd have a better set up overall, but you may not be able to find anything high enough in those sizes to completely eliminate line slap with your outfit.

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Thanks Tom. I guess I will have to go back to a size 40 guide size then since the previous setup had no line slap at all and i'm really struggling to get an NGC setup together that eliminates it and gets the distance for the rod at least within ten yards of the previous setup.

I am sure you have probably wrapped this by now, but I had this same rod and used it with a white Shimano stradic 4000 also. I used single foot Y frame Fujis in 25, 16, and 10 followed by size 8 single foot running guides and had no line slap issues. The rod is gone now so I can't take any measurements, but it was a great rod set up that way.