I am trying to determine what fuji new concept alconite spinning guides to order for a 7' 12-25lb &8-14lb fast action spinning rod. I read everything that you guys were saying about it, but I am still a little confused as to the progression of sizes, I am also trying to decide on sizes no bigger than16 because I wanted to try the smaller stripper guide theory I saw posted on here. Sidenote, one of the sizes I am considering I have no idea what it means. On Mudhole for these guides there are two 8J size guides but one is 8JL, I have no idea the difference and have not been able to find any literature on it. The only thing I can think of is that it means 8 low.

What I am considering ordering for these rods is 16J, 12J, 10J, 8J, 8JL, 7J, 7J. That starts with a smaller guide and has the 7 guides that near as I can tell is standard for 7' spinning rods. Any ideas?

I would appreciate any opinions on the matter.
James

To properly implement the system, you have to let the reel and line path tell you what sizes to use. You can't order sizes and then make the line conform to the guides - you do it the other way around, plot the line path and then conform the guides to that path.

This means you need to order a good assortment of guides so you'll have them with you to try. Any that end up left over will be used on one of your future projects.

By all means use the online article on the New Guide Concept here in the library - I'm not sure you're really up to speed on it, yet. You only need about 2 or 3 transition guides. The choker and running guides are all the same size and you could easily make do with #6's or even #5's for those. Use low frame fly type guides for those.

............

I read that article and I was originally thinking about just buying a bunch of a bunch of sizes just so that I could do that lining up like in the article, but I am having just a little trouble picturing how this will work. And I can't find anything smaller than 7 on mudhole in their BYAG Concept Alconite Spinning guides, where would you get those small guides, or small guides that would be similar to the alconite ones I mentioned. And I will do exactly that, I will just buy like 4 or 5 of each size 16-5 or 20 -5. Thanks again for the help.
James

And what is the deal with that size 8J and 8JL does anybody know what that means.
James

James the NGC works great for me. On a rod like you are building I do exactly as Tom described. I also use Alconites. If the reel face measures 40 - 42 mm in dia. I will use a BYAG 20, BYAG 12, then sometimes a BYAG 8 ( my line path will tell me if I need it ) then BLAG 6 Fly Guides the rest of the way out with a BFAT 6 Tip Top. I find most of the time the line path wins the argument and I have to use the BYAG 8 in the transition.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2008 05:54PM by Jay Hunt.

James,

You don't necessarily have to use Concept guides to use the New Guide Concept. In fact, it often works better if you don't.

Your choker and running guides should be fly rod type, low frame, single foot models. The butt and transition guide/s often do well in the Concept series.

.....................

I'm really glad I asked now, because I would have never thought to use fly rod guides on a spinning rod. Boy, the more I learn the less I know. lol Thanks a lot everyone.
James

As you figured, the 8JL is a "low" version. It has about the same height as an "SV" frame

Jay pretty much nailed it. I rarely use more than 2 or 3 guide sizes on any rod (I only build freshwater though) I use approx 1/2 size of the spool face dia for butt guide (BYAG type), then one other of the same type- possibly one more than the rest BLAG Fly type guides. The J simply designates a Fuji Concept series and the JL means Low concept. Like Tom said, you do not have to use Fuji Concept guides to use the New Guide Concept system. The line/reel will tell you where and what size guides.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

James,
the different 8 versions are for a transition guide to go from the higher frame guides down to the short fly guides. They work very well.

I tend to use a 30,16,10, 8 high, 8 low, 7 fly, and then down to 6 for the rest, including the tip.
These are the guides that I use for a heavier action rod, with reels using heavier line.

One of the things that I have found from customers who do a lot of heavier plug and or jig casting, that not only is the cast important, but equally important is the retreive. Most of the clients really dislike any rubbing on any guides during a no fish retreive.

i.e. the size of the guides, the spacing of the guides and alignment of the guides should be placed so that during the retreive on a non bent rod - there should be virtually no line rubbing any where on the rod.
In particular, the first guide - for the critical fisherman, like to have the line follow the circumference of the guide.
For the folks who are using heavy plugs, or jigs and heavy line - if the first guide is too small, the line simply drags along the top of the guide all of the time. For the hardcore casters with heavy plugs, this is unacceptable.

Small guides, as well as micro guides have their place and can work very well.

However, be sure to consider the client, his needs, wishes, reel, weight and type line to be used on the rod - along with the expected lure or plug weight to be used with the rod.

------
In contrast, for some of my picky walleye fishermen, who use light line to throw very light jigs, and often, throw them seldom - with long periods of non inactivity in between - the use of the much smaller guides as well as the micro guides on the balance of the rod pleases them as well.

So, build for the client, and his/her particular needs, fishing style and equipment.

Take care
Roger

As an alternative in a back issue of Rodmaker (sorry can't remember which one) Rich Forhan explained his Equal Distance methodolgy. The guide types and number are the same as the NCG system. However he uses a generic sizing scheme depending on the power of the rod (i.e., not tuned to specific reel) and his placement is based on a simple algorithm that provides a progressive "equal" distance. In the article he has done the math and provides spacing for common length rods (the arithmetic for a non-common length is straight forward). He readily admits that his set-up doesn't achieve ultimate casting performance but adds that the loss will not effect fishing performance. I use the methodology and agree. It also has the added benefit that it is quick and the finished rod fishes great across a range of reels that would normally be used with the power of the rod. This helps in buidling for customers/personal use where the anlger might not know the specific model reel he or she will use or likes to swap out reels depending on technique and line that might be used on a given trip.

btw, when I implement this method on similiar rods I only use 3 sizes (2 to the choke and then same size out to the tip, for the 12-25, 20, 16, 6s, for the 8-14, 20, 16, 4s) and do a little (usually very little) tweaking using a static test.

I'm with Steve - Vol. 5 #3 will back up what he says. All of my rods will easily outcast effective fishing distances. Read the article - then use your own judgement and numbers. as Steve has. I'm always changing reels and lines - just as Steve implies.

OK: does any one remember the discussion about the Kids reels with the cover on the face and the -- what was it a 10 opening ring size ? -- They casted very well. So now I am thinking of the ( M ) guides. Higher guide, smaller ring, tames the pig tails a lot faster. ????

Steve, I think that I like that idea more, I was so bummed that I was going to have to limit myself to one specific reel for each rod I build. I usually mix and match as a please. One day when I am rich (lol) I will have a specific reel for each rod. As always thanks for the help guys.
James

James - as a point of clarity I need to add that if you set up the rod using the NCG system tuned to a specific reel and then switch it's not likely that you will have a catastrophic failure, especially if you are staying in the same size series (e.g., 2500) and just changing model or even manufacturer. What you lose is probably a small percentage off the "ulitmate" performance but in all likelyhood still be in "effective fishing distance". In effect you will probably be in the same range of effective performance you get from the Equal Distance (ED) methodology. The ED methodoly is not a totally different approach. It retains 90%+ (just a high number I picked) of the NCG system principles - which keeps the the significant superiority of the system over other systems.

Now if you switch to a radically different reel then all bets are off (for a lot of reasons).

What impressed me in the article was the "savings" - inventory in guides and time. Using the method you can know ahead of time what guides to order for a certain power and length blank as well as buy ahead to keep a small(er) stash for future projects for the most common rods you build. The setup is also very quick, saving build time (without sacrificing effective performance, since you will lose the ultimate performance as soon as the angler switches reels anyway). As Rich points out in the article these time savings are especially important - they can be applied to fishing versus shop time :).

Bill - I remember the thread about spincast reels. I remember it because I have a fishing friend that uses them exclusively river fishing in S GA. No telling how many miles he's casted lures to no telling how many fish he's caught. And, he hasn't had a $ induced heart attack all the times he's lost a rod/reel in what he calls a "sacrifice to the river gods".



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2008 01:41PM by Steve Rushing.

One more question about this system, how is it applied to casting rods? Do we still use small fly guides towards the end? I can't find any mention of the use of this system with casting rods? Although I do see that fuji sells the new concept guides in casting. I wonder if it is because the spiral wrap is preferred and one might need bigger guides when doing a spiral to keep the line away from the blank.
James