Sorry to resurrect a dead horse, but I was doing my homework on rod spine (in this case with respect to a big two handed spey rod) and I agree very much with what I've found on this board that it has been blown way out of proportion. I agree that the rod will not twist because of the spine, given the loading of the line through the guides.

I was reading some information on building two handed fly rods, and the author mentioned that you should spine the blank as a starting point but test cast the rod by varying the orientation of the spine of the tip sections with respect to the guides. He mentioned that you may find significant differences in the performance of the rod depending on the orientation of the spine with respect to the plane of the cast.

Some of the other stuff I've read about rod spine seems to indicate that if you don't line up the spine correctly, your casts will not be accurate, they shoot off to the side, they'll do all sorts of crazy things. I'm not sure that I buy this all that much, but I might still buy into the feel of the blank being somewhat influenced by the spine.

Aside from the whole rod twist thing, do you guys still feel that the spine of a rod affects feel or performance of a rod? Or do you think its mostly a perceived notion that the spine has a dramatic effect on rod performance and it's not really that big of a deal? Any test casting evidence to back it up?

John

No science here, no testing, no real knowledge! But this expierance made me stop building rods on the "straightest axis" and go back to building on spline. I'm NOT saying there is anything wrong with building on the straighest axis!....but after the below expierance, it was clear to me that a BARE rod blank WANTS to be bent in one direction and prefers it. Now I utilize the spline on every rod, it made that big of an impression on me over 3 months time. It was obvious to others that played with it as well, and they knew nothing of rod building AT ALL. But they asked me WHY that rod was trying to turn in their hands:

I had a CTS Tourney Elite rod I was building for a guy. It hit the crapper due to a faulty skeleton seat that I didn't catch before I made and installed acrylic grips. I blew up the blank (totally my fault!) and ended up with a rod 5'6" piece.

We were keeping my daughters cat while they were moving from Savannah to AL. The cat always looked at rods like she'd love to play with one. So I tied a string to the end of the rod and we made one heck of an expensive cat toy out of it, that even left here with the cat, she loved it so well.

In the 3 months we had her, I spent a lot of time toying with her and the rod while watching TV or whatever. Kinda reminded me of a fish on the end actually. Keep in mind this is a BARE blank, nothing on it but a string tied to the end, NO seat, no handle no nothing.

I learned SO MUCH about rod spline with that cat toy, you would not believe how a rod really likes to act (maybe you do!) when it has no components on it and a cat or fish on the end. She was a pretty full sized cat and really gave the blank some bending at times.

It became a toy that everyone used, and everyone realized that the blank WANTED to be bend ONE way. Meaning, this blank really did like to be bent on one side WAY MORE then ANY other way. It would actually "roll" in your hand when enough pressure was put on it and I mean REALLY TURN in your hand.

This was enough to settle the spline debate for me forever. If it's there, use it whenever possible, but on a badly crooked blank, I would go back to straightest axis just to make the blank appear straight if needed. I dont think either way is wrong, but I do know I prefer building on spline over the straightest axis.

DR

Hi,
I have found that many builders have very definite ideas on the spine and how to use it if at all. It seems to be a topic such as discussing religion or politics so I avoid those discussions and go my merry way. Be comfortable in what you learn and what you believe works best for you.

There are so many different types of rods we build for all different types of situatuions that there is enough room for all the ideas that surface.

Capt Neil Faulkner

A bare rod blank may want to bend in a certain direction, but we don't fish with a bare rod blank. The rod will flex toward the load and it will either twist or not twist, depending upon where you place the guides. The guides are lever arms and they will attempt to turn to face the direction the load is coming from. A cat toy does not have line guides along its length and will perform very much differently than a fishing rod. Very much differently. In fact, this is one of the type things that has helped create these myths - comparing things that seem similar to fishing rods, to fishing rods, when in fact they aren't similar at all.

99% of all the stuff ever written on rod spine and its effect on casting accuracy or rod twist is pure myth and has never been backed up by any sort of scientific tests or data. It was written about enough that eventually people starting buying it without asking any questions. Now when we give them the data from controlled mechanical casting tests, they won't believe this, prefering instead to fall back on myths which never had a leg to stand on to begin with. We have the data and the results to prove that rod spine has little to nothing to do with rod twist and that accuracy is rarely affected by spine position, either. But, some have held these older myths for so long and they are so dear to their hearts that they can't easily let go of them.

In the end it doesn't matter - your rod will work just fine regardless of where you put the spine. If you don't want it to twist, however, then you'll have to build your rods with the guides on the bottom, regardless of where you choose to orient the spine.

..............

A word about spine orientation and casting - in controlled mechanical casting tests we never found that spine orientation made any difference in casting accuracy. The lure goes in the direction the rod tip is moving in at the moment of release. Even if your shaft (blank) was twisting around its own central axis, that plane will not change. We used 0, 90 and 180 degree spine positions and other than some changes in distance due to the particular power of the blank in any given plane or axis matched to the particular casting weight, no difference in accuracy was recorded.

What we did find, however, was that blanks that were badly out of straight, i.e., which had extreme curvature or warp, could cause a great deal of accuracy problems if that curve or warp was placed far from the casting plane. This is another reason for building on the straightest axis, that is, if you want the best accuracy possible.

In either case, you do have to remember that in certain types of fishing it would be hard to make all your casts in a particular and perfect plane.


....................

Tom,

This "cat toy" was a fishing rod blank, only guideless and incomplete. No matter, like you stated, the rod DOES WANT to bend one direction, it only makes sense to use that even if the guides do change what the blank does or wants to do.

DR

"...guideless and incomplete"

There's the whole story in a nutshell. It will not want to flex the same way once you wrap guides on it and apply the load via a line running through those guides. For best casting accuracy you'd want the straightest axis to be in the intended casting plane (and use low frame guides to reduce the lever arm effect as much as possible). Rod twist will be determined by guide placement, alone.

And actually, the rod doesn't want to bend or flex at all - it resists such in any direction.


..........

I agree with the rod twist thoughts and the accuracy thoughts - I think those a function of the same loading issue. What about the feel of a rod? That's another thing that gets kicked around a lot with spine orientation - that you can make a rod feel slightly slower or faster depending on which way you orient the spine. Have any of you messed around with that to form an opinion? And I should add that I'm talking about feel in context of the load the rod is designed for. I don't think you can do any magic with rod spine in terms of making a rod more powerful - that's a choice of blank issue.

John

Hi,

Here is a thought. Take is for what it is worth.

I understand what Tom is writing and can give testament to some of it. Some I can not as I have not proved it myself. Maybe some day.

Anyway back to the thought. If using the spine a certain way can help achieve what you want then go with it. Even if it is a perception. I firmly believe that if you like the rod and reel and tackle you use then you will catch more fish. Again a perception. After all it is a fishing tool not open heart surgery. Try your ideas.

Capt Neil Faulkner

I'm with the Captain on this one.

While I 'know' that it doesn't really matter, I always put the spine in the same place. I know 'why' I do it, and even if I know it doens't really matter, it makes me fell better about the rod.

Confidence is so much more important than any of this technical stuff anyway (given that what you are after is actually catching fish).

Perception is reality to many of us.

Buddy Sanders

That sort of proves his point.... I do it because it makes me feel better, not because there is any scientific proof.

Duane, I think what Tom is trying to say is, Wrap some guides on that sucker, thead the line though the guides, then have your cat hang from it. No matter where the spine is, the guides are going to want to go to the bottom. JM .02

Regards......Doug@
TCRds

Thanks Doug, I believe I've got it :-) ......everything except the cat, got one I can borrow?....... and thats not going to change things any at all. Use the spline or not use it, the choice is up to the builder. I'm going to USE mine. There's no valid reason to NOT use it, (unless you have a croked blank) even if the difference it makes is small to none.

DR

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that the spine only matters when fighting a fish, and then it is the force of the guides on the blank that determines which way it bends (and/or twists). There might be some merit to an arguement that says alignning the guides and the spine creates some sort of synchronicity, which is largely why I do it. However, when it comes to casting it seems almost pointless. From my canoe I am likely to use a different casting plane every time I throw a lure. From backhanded casts to banks overhung by branches, to cross-the-river parabolic launches when throwing buzzbaits, and everything in between. Unless you cast with the exact same motion everytime, I doubt that spine placement has any effect on casting accuracy. I am not unconvinced that this doesn't apply to the straightest axis, either, but, then, it could all simply be a function of my peculiar fishing techniques. For what it's worth, I usually align the guides on the spine because, well, you have to start somewhere and there's always that synchronicity thing I mentioned above. (Gee, I love it when I can work "synchronicity" into a conversation!)
Tight lines,
Hunter

From ghoulies and ghosties,
and long leggedy beasties,
and things that go bump in the night,
Good Lord deliver us!

Build this one on spine and your will be the proud owner of a rod for life - no body will ever buy it unless they happen to be cross-eyed!

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Gon Fishn

More baloney has been written about spine than any other rodbuilding topic.

I will, unlike most of the others who say how important spine is, admit that I haven't done all that much testing, nor do I have vast reams of empirical data to support my conclusions. But I have monkeyed around with enough different rods to come up with the following challenge:

I will build three rods that will be identical, except for the following:
- One will be built on the spine
- One will be built 180 degrees opposite the spine
- One will be built 90 degrees off the spine (in either direction)

Here's the challenge: you make 10 casts with each of the three rods (all of which are unmarked). The caster identifies which rod is built on the spine, which rod is built opposite the spine, and which rod is built 90 degrees from the spine. To prevent a lucky guess, the process is repeated two more times (three tests total), and after each test run, the caster identifies the rods again.

If the challenger is correct, he keeps the rods, and $100 on top of them. If he loses, the rods go to charity, and the challenger must pay for the components and make a $100 donation to the charity on top of that.

If spine is such a big deal in how a rod peforms, it should be a cinch to indentify, right? That means the challenge is easy money, right?

That's exactly the sort of challenge I would like to see done! (Do it with a fly rod!)

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And actually, the rod doesn't want to bend or flex
> at all - it resists such in any direction.
> ..........


now this is good stuff. if the rod wanted to bend, it woudl do so on its own.

for the sake of clarity - I pay no attention to the spine whatsoever, but go for the straightest axis.

but were I a beleiver in spine..... I'm not sure i necessarily put the guides on the axis with the least resistance to bending as it would seem to me to effectively reduce the power in the rod - albeit very negligible in such an instance.

if we factor in hunters very good point that the load for casting or even fishin fighting is not applied along the same plane in every instance, I believe the effect of said spine is even less important

If I may be so bold, IF a rod has an identifiable spine, and will naturally try to form the bend there (path of least resistance) then why not utilize that fact- keeping in mind we still want to build on the straightest axis possible.

I understand that a blank with the guides on top will always want to twist- the point is wouldn't it twist less when going with the spine than when fighting it ?

I consider both straightness and spine, but a rod that is not noticeably crooked will be given consideration as to the spine orientation. Granted it's a balancing act, but I never deliberately ignore spine altogether.

OK, I can't resist this one. I'm talking about "effective spine" - the one you find by using a spine-finder tool.

We build "on spine". Our testing leads us to believe that it makes a difference in several areas, notably reduced casting effort in a spinning rod configuration., and in controllability and "even" distribution of the stress-and-twist effects on a rod in a fight with a fish. Many of our customers say they can tell the difference and that's enough reason for us to do it this way, even if we can't tell the difference ourselves - I'm working with a messed up right hand, so I can't tell much of anything anyway. I'm also in the "always done it this way and it just feels "right" crowd.

That said, there used to be a number of articles (dating back to Isaac Walton, I believe) that held that spine could be used to affect casting, for example, if you built on the 90deg axis from the spine (i.e., so that the guides were at the 90deg axis, rather than the 0 or 180deg axis) it would facilitate the sidearm style of casting. There's also some arguments - somehow, this thing never is just a discussion - about spi9ng in gold club shafts, but I'm not gonna stick my hand in that fire again - did it here once, and that was enough.

I'd agree with the cat-test method but in my case, they both grab the rod tip and proceeed to bite on it after they figure out that the toy is tied to it, which I suppose counts as "load" (15lbs or so) but is an expensive way to prove the point, so I quit doing it that way.

Uncle Russ
Calico Creek Rods

Hi,

I have been told that once a large rod manufacturer started to build using the spine that the number of rods returned broken decreased. Less torquing under stress.

Also builders who build rods for side winder reels will move the spine 090* to the side I believe. I may be corrected on that. It has to do with how side winder reel uses cast.

This thread should be enough to make you only build spin rods and conventional spiral wrapped rods using the spine effectively. But then we all know that this is not the real world!!!

Capt Neil Faulkner