I've been using Fuji LSGs on casting rods and pretty happy with them. Anyone have any experience where they can compare the American Tackle NIF Titan guides? Just wondering about durability mainly.

The titan ring locks I have seem to just as good as the fuji. I wouldnt recomend the non-ring locks as the guides are expensive. I do have the non- locked also and the rings have not fallen out, but still these guides arent cheap so the extra secuirty is worth it. I think they should ring lock all their guides.

I don't have any fuji LSG experience, but I've been using titans over the last year and a half without an issue on my own rods

I didn’t think that they made Ring Lock Titans in single foot fly guides, I have only seen double foot Ring Lock Titans. I have used the Titans and they work very well. Any Titanium frame guide should be very durable, the material is not susceptible to fatigue when guides get bent and the straightened back out repeatedly.

I would like to see a weight comparison between a Titan and a Ring Lock in the same size single foot guides. It looks like the Ring Lock design is lighter, but the weight difference of the Titanium material may or may not make up for it. Even better I would like to see Ring Lock Titan single foot fly guides.

Hello Mike,
We have been working very hard on making a Titanium Ring-Lock Fly Guide, it has been a learning experience. We are currently making new molds and dyes that will work better with the Titanium material. We had hoped to have them in by now, but it looks like it may be closer to the first of the year. Rest assured we are working on them, and as soon as they are up to our standards, we will release them. Please let me know if there is anything else I can answer, Thanks for your interest in American Tackle!

Chase Foster
American Tackle
www.americantackle.us

I personally have tested this theory about " Titanium frame guides should be very durable, the material is NOT susceptible to fatigue when guides get bent and then straightened back out repeatedly"
I have 6 single foot TITANIUM FRAME guides sitting at my desk that I bent 3 times ( Down, back and then down again and they all failed). I will not get into whose guides, just that they are Titanium Frame guides. I know that they are "titanium" - not sure what grade, because I personally had them tested by an independent laboratory. We do test other companies products and find out a lot of interesting things. Titanium is Light that's a fact.
I use these sorts of tests to help improve the Batson Product lines. And I also use FACTS when doing presentations, when necessary to combat misinformation.

Bill Batson

Metallic guide frames can be manufactured that have "memory". They can be restored to their original position without failure. They are few and very far between. These types of materials can be commonly found in eye glass frames that can be twisted and will go back to their original shape.

The use of the words stainless steel and titanium do not insure that all the wanted properties are present in a fishing rod guide frame. There are many forms of stainles steel and an almost endless number of titanium alloys that could be used in making guide frames - some are good choices and some are poor choices. Many types of tests should be run on materials to determine structural strength, oxidation levels, cold working stress levels, intergranular cracking, stress corrosion cracking, sensitization, heat affected zones, electrolosis effects of coatings and on and on and on - . Many universities have metallurgical facilities on campus that would love to have the chance to make reccomendations pertaining to materials selection for this industry. I am wondering at what point to current manufacturers utilize a metallurgist for validation of proper materials selection.

High speed aircraft, like the Blackbird, went all the way through the development of metals to resist everything while reducing weight until they hit a wall. How did they solve the problem to get where supersonic aircraft are today - carbon fiber/nonmetallics - maybe someone will have a brainstorm to build a non-metallic guide frame that has none of the problems that face us daily.

Gon Fishn

Like Bill said, I don't know where the myths start but I've seen all the titanium guides break. I used to change out the REC guides all the time from people showing their buddies their indestructible guides. The really bad part was it usually happened along their favorite non-local stream. One guy was packing a spinning travel rod for a trip so he bent the guides back to fit in a travel tube that was a bit too small, he had a big surprise when he got where he was going.

Hi guys,

Thank you all for your interest in our products!

Titanium is truly an amazing material that offers some challenges along with so many benefits. Some of these challenges include material costs, tooling costs, and material sourcing issues related to the fact that several material grades must be used due to different forming requirements. While all this makes it a very costly product line to offer, on the flip side of things the benefits are outstanding. It's true, titanium offers durability advantages like material strength and corrosion proof, but performance on a rod is where it excels. There is no doubt it is lighter then stainless, plus the added flexibility provides certain benefits when wrapped to a blank where the action is important. In today's quest for lighter weight performance driven rods, titanium is the perfect answer.

Alex, Fuji makes a fine product but there are differences in the LSG's and the NIF's other then price. The LSG has a slightly different frame style with a deep press design and shorter foot. The NIF is a traditional fly guide design without the deep press and a slightly longer foot. Its a stiff titanium material (and I won't mention the grade as it has little to do with anything since there are so many variations just like stainless) that won't bend easily and the insert is Nanolite, which is second in hardness only to SiC but offers added durability with less cost without any sacrifices. I have used these guides since we began testing them and have never had a failure. I would say try a set or two., I think you'll like them. Obviously I am a bit biased

Henry and Mike, the Titan Ringlock is new and it is an outstanding guide. It has all the features of the Ringlock for durability: Quad-leg design, Press-fit frame, shortened foot-print, and Nanolite ring, all in Titanium. As Chase said, we are working on the fly guides and other design improvements so they will be coming soon.

Bill Batson, I would say that titanium isn't for you. These guides were not designed to be bent back and forth on your desk but they were designed to provide advantages that stainless doesn't have. Stainless is a great material too, easier to use, cheaper to buy, easier to obtain. Its a stiff material but can also be more brittle then titanium as stiffer doesn't always equate to stronger. As I mentioned above, I believe titanium is high performance and performance is measured and treated differently by all. A Ferrari is high performance and so are many off-road vehicles. If I owned a Ferrari I would definetely drive it and care for it differently then a 4WD truck. Or in rod terms, fiberglass and graphite often have different expectations and are used or treated accordingly. A high modulus carbon scrim blank would most likely be treated differently then a fiberglass blank. (I still wouldn't touch the tip to butt and deem the broken one weaker)

Bill Stevens, good points. We have dealt with many "experts", vendors, different material ideas, and options but when it came to production they are often not practical or useable based on current manufacturing abilities. We do have some great ideas for futuristic guides but at present this industry cannot afford the costs we would have to pass along to introduce these products. The machining, material, moulds etc. would make the titanium guide prices the best deal ever. We are still pursuing it but unfortunately we don't have the "Blackbird" design budget.

Spencer, I guess just about everything has its breaking point. Many of the people I talk too don't have many issues with broken guides and considering all the millions that are sold and used each year, maybe guides in general are pretty good or anglers take care of their gear, or just maybe a million are purchased and used for replacements. How ever they are used will will continue t[o pursue new ideas and improve everything we offer.

Thank you for your time.

Darrin Heim
American Tackle Company

i was going to use titanium guides on my current build but you guys are ruining it, haha! is titanium a good choice?

I have been using Titans for some time when cost isn't the issue but performance is. I think they are far superior (lighter) than any SS guides on the market that I have used. All guides on the market that I have used are high quality and I have never encountered a bad one!! They ALL have their place and Titanium frames definately have an advantage when weight and corrosion resistance are factors. I really don't think that one company bashing a product that they don't make is very fairplay!!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Mike;
You might be right, but I did not perceive it as "bashing" Just an honest statement that they will in fact break if bent enough. After seeing how the recoils flexed at the show I bought my first batch of Fuji TATSG’s with the impression that they would be spring like flexible and go back to their original shape.

I was greatly disheartened when they would not. Don't get me wrong I still use them on occasion But I bought the first two sets for matching rods with that specific mind set.

Had I known the truth I would still have bought them to experiment with. But I would not hade been disappointed like I was. I think people knowing that they can and will break will save some further disappointments.

This thread could do much to sway the manufacturers/vendors - hope it stays informative!

The situation with guides may be more important to our craft than many think. The almost endless listing of materials, coatings, enhancments, shapes, rings, heights, styles and uses presents a rapidly moving target for all users, vendors and manufacturers. As Darrin said "millions" of these things are manufactured. All the manufacturers attempt to please customers and increase market share for a particular item. Advertising literature for these items, in some cases, does not provide the information needed to make a wise decision on choice for a particular requirement. Most industries have approved standards such as ASTM requirements, that apply to manufactured items. If there were such group or association for our craft that could validate or rate good better and best it sure would save some of us a lot of time and money. If this evaluation was done in a sane manner it may cut down on some of the expense to vendors and manufacturers of market chasing by developing prettier stuff in an attempt to please all.

I think this thread may give an indication of the good, better and best if we handle it in a civil manner.

Case in point for my requirements - Use of coated 304 stainless steel guide frames for inshore saltwater rods for sale to the general public has resulted in excessive cost for guide replacement due to electrolosis breakdown of the coating/plating applied to the base metal.

Billy V - I hope you do not mind me using your photo for a link to an example of surface coating degredation.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Gon Fishn

A decade ago, Daiwa almost, almost, made all metal guides obsolete. Their nylon Dynaflow guides were superior in most respects. They used a metal matrix ring in a bottom hinge frame and thus had no problems with the rings popping out due to guide flex. Where they made their mistake, was in overbuilding the guides - the bottom half the guide frame was simply far more substantial than it had to be. They didn't rust or break, but they also didn't flex well which should have been a large part of the criteria that they were designed to perform.

Guides need to flex with the rod. Either the feet, the frame, or both. Few guides do. Metal guides of almost any type are far too stiff and greatly overbuilt for the job they have to do. Eventually, someone will revisit the Daiwa type guides and employ a more flexible frame design and metal guides will be obsolete almost overnight. It still bothers me that nearly 60 years after the demise of the steel fishing rod, we're still using steel and other metals in guide frames.

....................

Darrin Heim,

If you can make your Ti fly guides as light as the Fuji TLSG and down to size 5, I'd be all over them. Currently, they are up to 80% heavier in some sizes (albeit still lighter than steel) - I think you can use way less titanium around the ring. Always looking for a more affordable alternative to Fuji that matches Fuji's lightweight. (i.e. Fuji TLSG 6.0 is .12 grams while Titan is .21 grams using examples I have in hand. differences narrow a bit in the size 5.0) As it is, I have purchased the Titans so this is not a criticism but feedback on what I'd like to see.

Mo

As far as the original question goes, the guide is plenty durable. I've used hundreds of the Titan NIF-s, and the rings have never popped out.

I've had a few Titans pop they're rings, but as Mike said, all rings are good rings and built for specific purposes.
I still use and recomend Titans. You just can't treat 'em as rough as SS.
But for what Titanium does, you can't beat 'em.
I, for one, can't wait for the Titaium RingLocks in NIA... they'll be all I ever use on my own personal saltwater spining rods.

Hi Mo,

I haven't done the direct comparisons with the Titans and Fuji's Ti's yet as the fly guides are a bit different designs so I believe you. I did weigh the SS Ringlocks and Alconite/SiC guides and they were extremely close with some lighter and some heavier depending on the sizes. Due to similar physical size the Titan Ringlock fly guides will be close in weight as well, and with the Nanolite rings they may very well come in lighter. Their prices will also differ.

Darrin Heim

I should more accurately state, I've never had a failure of any kind with these Titan NIF guides. They are a great guide for what they are supposed to be, a lightweight fly guide, at a reasonable price.