Hey guys. I'm new to this forum and rod building. I'm sure this topic has been around lots, so please excuse me for asking again...

Several months ago I had a Sage Z-Axis 590-4 built for me (the rod builder was GREAT - excellent job and top-notch customer service - actually inspired me to get started myself). The rod was built using Fuji Gold Cermet guides. Have fished it quite a bit, and like it. I just cast my rod next to a factory built rod, and all I can say is WOW! The effect the Fuji's have is astounding - my rod feels heavy and slow. A fast action rod has been turned into a medium action rod.

I thought the Fuji's would offer performance advantages over snakes by eliminating line slap against the blank. I think the added weight has a more detrimental effect on blank performance. I think inert guides are better suited to heavier stiffer rods that won't be so effected by the added weight. Or if you want to slow a blank down a bit...

I'm considering changing the guides to wire. So here'e the questions - Who makes the best wire guides? Which finish is best? There are many companies, and many options - chrome, TiCh, snake, single foot, Recoil, etc... As a new rod builder, I'd love to hear f/ others experiences for my own use, and for my eventual customers. Thanks much in advance! Michael Pukas - aka mpp

Hi michael,
I use Hopkins and Holloway guides on the fly rods we build and find them excellent.
You have other choices in the USA Pac Bay etc.
Buy the best you can afford and if you want to get the best performance from your rod go with single foot guides. These are a bit of a fiddle to wrap if it is your first time but worth it I think.
I am sure you will get heaps of response from your post so good luck.

Cheers
Paul

I fish therefore I am.
www.hookeduprods.com

I have to admit I find what you've said a bit funny.
You said you casted and fished the custom rod and liked it. But, next to the factory it seemed slow. What is it about the "faster" action that makes you not like the custom rod as much?
I do think unless the Fuji guides were solid titanium framed guides their weight would be too much for a 5 wt.
I just used some on a 8-9 wt and they're amazing. Maybe slowed the action a bit. But, the increase in line flow and speed makes casting and hauling effortless.
On lighter rods I prefer REC single foot Recoil guides. They're the lightest and strongest. Some people have their problems with them. But, I've yet to have any and they make for the lightest, crispest rod possible.
Just my two cents. Have fun.
Todd

The different guides may change the feel of the action but they don't make it slower or faster. The Action Angle is determined by the rod taper. The measurement of that angle determines the relationship between slow or fast.
It may pay to measure the ERN of the two rods and make certain you are comparing similar rods before you go to the trouble of changing guides or at least compare the weight of the gold cermets to the wire guides you choose.



Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2007 10:24PM by Stan Grace.

The Fuji Gold Cermet guides are the best ceramic fly guides on the market. I haven't weighted a set of Cermets lately but I have in the past and on a triple beam scale there is only a couple of grams difference between them and a set of guides using snakes. I do know the Cermets will shoot line through them better than snakes. And for use in saltwater they are unsurpassed. Take a magnifing glass and look at the frames of the guides they should say Fuji and have the ring size stamped on them. If you can't find the name on the guides they may not be Cermets. Just a thought.

All great replies guys - thanks, I really appreciate it.

I do like my rod w/ the cermet guides, and faster is not always better, but the factory rod has a ligter crisper livelier feeling overall. that's what I liked about the ZA initially.

I'm really quite shocked, as well as my friend who cast both rods, that the guides had that much of an effect. He felt the same way as I do. And it's personal opinion - the cermet guides do effect blank performance, and it's up to each caster if they like the effect or not. For me, I'd rather have that ligt crisp feeling AND have the sensation of the line just floating througt the air! LOL! Can't someone make a cermic/titanium guide that weighs as much as a 1/0 light wire snake guide???!!! ;-)

Measuring the AA of each rod would be interesting. It is possible that the blanks are not equal. I'd love to be able to measure a blank, a factory rod, and my rod and compare numbers. Not to get into a debate about CCS as i have never measured a rod and have limited knowledge of the system, but I consider my blank to be "slowed", as it bends much farther down the blank with same load - i.e. - just shaking it in the air, or casting 40' of line - and takes longer to recover. And such measurements would inform me of one of my beefs w/ the CCS - that a measurement of a rod/blank loaded staticly is not necessarily an indication of how the rod performs dynamically.

Just one other thought. Were you using the exact same line on each rod? Not all lines are exactly their stated weight. I have heard that one manufacturer's line is actually a half step higher. A different line would certainly load each rod differently.
Tight lines,
Hunter

From ghoulies and ghosties,
and long leggedy beasties,
and things that go bump in the night,
Good Lord deliver us!

I thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth on this one. Of all the guides I have used, I would say that Snake Brand are by far nicer to use. Very very consistant in finish, shape, size etc. I typically can use them right out of the packages without any foot prep. I use them exclusively on my fly rods unless someone requests something different. They are also the only one I will use on my bamboo rods. Very nice folks to deal with as well.

If you want the lightest,crispest feeling rod possible,keep the first 2 gold cermet casting guides(If you want to cut a tiny bit more weight you could replace them with the even lighter titanium frame SIC Concept guides which have thinner,lighter frames.Personally,I would just use the Gold Cermets though.) and replace the rest with a set of single foot Recoils(the heavy wire model is better IMHO and is still much lighter than any other guide).Your rod will feel MUCH nicer than with the ceramics.

If you don't want to use the single foot Recoils(some find them a bit noisy and they don't have the cosmetic appeal of a gold or chrome guide) then TiCH or TiGold single foot guides would also be a good choice,but the Recoils are lighter.

If you want to go with snake guides then I would still use the lighter Recoil snakes(in the heavy wire version) for the best weight savings,but the Snake Brand guides are EXCELLENT snake guides that are quite light and don't require much,if any,extra prepping like you will have to do with other guides.

I absolutely love titanium frame ceramics on 6wt rods and up(they are so smooth,so quite,and my flylines seem to last forever),but even the lightest titanium framed SIC Concept guides(the casting guides have much thinner frames than the Gold Cermets and the guides are considerably lighter) feel a bit heavy on rods lighter than that.I know some guys still swear by ceramics even on the lightest of rods,but they do weigh more than wire and you can definitely feel the difference that little bit of extra weight makes on the lighter rods.On the heavier rods,not so much.

If you replace the Gold Cermet guides you can always save them to use on a 6wt or 7wt rod,where you won't notice the weight as much.You will probably LOVE the feel of them on a slightly heavier rod.

i've been meaning to mention snake brand snakes. i'm planning on wrapping my first bamboo blank and plan to use snake brand snakes in the black NS version. my decision was helped by good reports from other bamboo guys, and the review that often lists how well the guide feet come preprepped. their web site states something to the effect that as the guide size decreases, so does the diameter of the wire used. might be a nice option for this bamboo which i want to build with a lean towards the traditional.

i'm basically a new builder too. only about a dozen graphite fly rods for streams under the belt. so far i usually i go with single foot wire guides from pac bay or once or twice from batson. my preference has been for the Ti coated pac bay single foots. they offer a thing wire version too.

eric
fresno, ca

How many cerments are on the rod and what size? Perhaps too many and too big are also factors here. what size and type is the tiptop? Generally with ceramic guides I try to use less of then than I would with snakes or wire guides.

Try a recoil tiptop and putting recoil single foots on just the tip section (3 or 4 guides) and see how it works from there. Unless there are a lot of ceramic guides I don't think the extra weight in the lower 2/3's of the rod changes feel much.

I'm sure that I won't change anyone's mind about what guide is the best, that seems to be a subject that people have very strong oponions about.
I am compelled to offer my views anyway, as I also have fairly strong oponions based on my experience.
Do not replace your Gold Cermet Guides unless they are sized or placed incorrectly.
Some factor other than guide material is causeing the difference between the two rods that you compared.
Unless I am mistaken, the factory rod has snake guides & is actually heavyer than your custom rod with single foot Cermets due to the weight of the additional thread & rod finish.
It is true that wire guides are lighter than ceramics, but unless you use single foot wire guides the additional wrap always makes up the difference.
Something else must be a factor.
Check the AA & ERN of the two rods.
Use the same line on both rods.
Have the same skilled caster test both rods on the same day in the same place with all conditions as close to being the same as possible.
I would hate to see you mess up a good custom rod & still be dissappointed with the outcome.
For 4 weight & up, properly sized & spaced Gold Cermets can't be beat.
They might be overkill on 4 & 5 weight fresh water rods, but they will not be surpassed in performance.
Gil Mc Millan
GM Custom Rods

"but I consider my blank to be "slowed", as it bends much farther down the blank with same load - i.e. - just shaking it in the air, or casting 40' of line - and takes longer to recover."

This statement would indicate that it is a slower blank. Changing guides will not change how a blank bends with the same load. If you measure the AA of the blank now and then change guides and measure again you should arrive at the same number. The ERN of the rod may show a very slight change as well as the resonant frequency. It is not difficult to measure the AA and know for certain how it compares with different guide weights . Measure it as is and then tape on an extra guide or two and remeasure.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

Micheal
What Stan said concerning the "Speed" of a given rod being the same regardless of guides is true.
The two rods that you compared have different bending qualities.
If you check the CCS data area on this site you will find many Sage blanks under my name. In the rod listing you can find the same blanks as finished rods, again under my name.
You will find that the AA remains the same & the ERN is very slightly lower as a finished rod, just as Stan stated.
You must compare apples to apples.
Gil Mc Millan

Snake Brand snake guides are the best. If you use Pearsal's Gossamer silk with varnish, the total weight will be less than any single foot with nylon and epoxy.

Snake brand guides keep poppomg up as the best - or at least I've never heard anything bad. What about finishes? Is TiCh harder/slicker than chrome? What is more durable?

I did cast both rods with the same reel and line under the same conditions at the same time. My friend that i cast with is the manager of a local shop and a Certified Casting Instructor. All variables were the same, except the guides on the rods.

Stan and Gil - I understand and appreaciate everything your saying - not completely understanding the CCS nuances, everything you've said makes sense and is clear. However, I have to dabate you - or at least raise some questions for clarification.

As I understand it, a rods action is a description of how it bends (and this may be where I am off) - ie - upper 1/3 = fast action; middle = medium action; etc. A rod has a given action; and the way it flexes can be varied by the load put on it - ie use a lighter or heavier line. does that change the action of the rod? No, the rod has the same action, different lines weights load the rod differently, thus making the rod bend differently. Now the question of guide weight - the blank still has the same action, but increased guide weight effects how the blanks bends - when loaded dynamically by casting line or wiggling it in the air. Is that a change in action? I have to say yes that my rod has a slower action due to the added weight of the guides.

I have noticed that different measurements for the same blank/rod vary - I think we can expect that to some degree given that blank maufacturing has a small degree of error. But I disagree that guides of different weights will not effect the way a blank bends differently when loaded with the same load. Yes, if a my rod and a factory rod are CCS'ed, there may be very small differences, but the real story happens when the rod is moving. To say that added guide weight does not effect how a rod bends defies some fundamental laws of physics (which I am very rusty on...). The theory of moment - the more weight you put farther away from the fulcrum, the more force is exerted. And what's that mass-velocity equation I can't think of right now - the greater the mass and the higher the velocity the more force. More force eqauls more bending of the rod.

Am I making any sense here? Am I missing something? 'Cuz I'm having a hard time accepting/understanding some of the CCS theories. What I find useful of it is a way to compare rods on paper, and then see how they compare when cast. I don't believe that the measurements of a rod loaded staticly will be an accurate representation of how it will cast and perform - unless all things are equal among all rods - components, graphite, scrim, resins, etc... which they are not. Much thanks in advance (as I know you guys have probably been around this many times before ;-) ). mpp

The weight you add to the blank does not change the action angle. The Action Angle (AA) is measured with a protractor to read the angle that results when the blank is deflected 1/3 of its length from horizontal. The amount of weight required for that same deflection indicates the power or ERN.
You are assuming the guides are changing the way your blank casts without knowing what they actually weigh compared to other guides mentioned and without having comparing measurements of the two rods objectively. I can only say if you believe the cost and trouble of changing guides on the rod will improve it dramatically go for it. It will be a belief based on subjectivity rather than objectivity but if you believe strong enough you'll most likely be satisfied.
I do believe from my own exdperience that there will only be a few grains difference in weight between the gold cermets and other guides you may choose. I suspect there is a lot more difference in the ERN and AA readings between the rods you are describing than you suspect.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2007 11:33AM by Stan Grace.

I think this debate about ceramics versus snakes is like the pre-CCS debates over whether a rod is medium, medium/fast or fast tapered. It will go on forever without numbers.

I'd like to see weights of all the readily available #6 and #5.5 ceramics and comparably sized snakes for both guides and tip tops.

It would also be nice to know how much a square mm or square inch of binding covered with a "normal" coat of FlexCoat actually weighs.

I would oblige by publishing these numbers, but I'm too cheap to buy all those guides and a suitable scale!

I think all of us have a hunch about what is the best design but without some controlled experiments/comparisons and the weights ,we are all just guessing.

The design I have tended towards is,
- Always use ceramics (I hate the noise, line wear and durability of snakes)
- Use 1 or 2 less guides than is "standard. (Haven't broken a rod yet, though I'm careful not to "high-stick". Also, light spinning/noodle rods don't need all those guides, so why does a fly rod?)
- If at all possible put guides over ferrules (even if that's not where they should go according to a static test. I think a static test is over valued and placing the guides on a ferrule gives one less dead spot and section of epoxy.)
- Grind the guide feet back until they are only about 2/3 of their initial length.
- Use an absolute minimum of binding (and epoxy)
- Use smaller guides than “standard”.
- Do not use a tip top but bind on a guide at the tip. (I don’t know if the guide really is lighter than a tip top, but it looks lighter to me! An additional benefit of this is that the guide is relatively easy to replace without having to melt strong glues or having hot-melt glue melt when you don't want it to. The line also runs a little straighter without the tip top.)

Rods like this work OK for me but I’m sure there’s lots of better ways to do it.

Stan-
One comment I would make about the CCS system and the AA and the ERN...

These measurements are a valid indicator of the static properties of a rod, but are they a valid indicator of the action of the rod while casting??? If changing the guides does not change the AA or ERN as you say, then I would argue (on my experience) that the CCS is not really a valid measurement of the casting properties of a rod.

I have a 10 wt. that I have broken and rewrapped sections at least 5 times, each time getting a replacement section to rebuild. I am assuming the replacement section is not changing the CCS characteristics significantly (I could be wrong), but I do know the rod has had a remarkably different casting "feel" based on how it is wrapped.

One time, I used cheap Cabela's epoxy packets in a rush to complete the rod before a trip after I ran out of my regular epoxy. The epoxy did not cure properly, so I ended up with about 7 coats before I got the epoxy to cure. I usually use two coats. Once again, I am assuming this didn't affect the CCS numbers, but the rod felt totally different when I casted it. After the trip, I stripped the guides and rewrapped with 2 coats of Threadmaster, and voila!... my old rod was back again!!!

Not to attack the CCS.... because it is the best system we have. But I argue that it is a valid test of a rods static properties, but is not necessarily a valid measurement of a rod's casting action.


To answer the original question, I have settled on Titanium/SiC strippers and single foot Recoils as my favorite combo on fly rods. I think single foot vs. double foot is far more important than the brand or make of guide. I can't prove it, but I think the wraps on sinlge foot (half as many as double foot) and the resultant epoxy is more important than the very fine weight differences of the guides.

Davis,
I put a web site up for the comp arison of guide weights [www.wideopenwest.com] Have some listed but it seems like way more people are interested in what they weigh than are interested in weighing them and submitting the weights. If anyone has any weights, it would be much appreciated if they would send them in to the sight

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!