The ERN can be changed slightly by changing guides and the resonant frequency can be changed much more but the Action Angle as it is defined will not change. Michael has pointed out a difference in action between the two rods when describing the difference in the way they flex. If this is an accurate description then it is difficult for me to beleve that it is due to the difference in guide weights alone. That is why I wouldn't change over a rod of my own with out knowing that the ERN and AA of the blanks I am comparing was truly similar and what the difference was in the weight of the guides to be switched. It may be I'm more comfortable in making changes based on objective analysis than I am on subjective feel.

I would say you most likely changed the AA and ERN on your 10# with the described repairs.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2007 10:24AM by Stan Grace.

Michael & Mike

For your information I weighed a few guides last night.

Single foot REC Ti ring size about 7-8 mm (the smallest that I have on hand & about equal to ring of a 7 mm Gold Cermet) Weight = 1.7 grains

Old style 7 mm Gold Cermet Weight = 3.4 grains

New style 7 mm Gold Cermet Weight = 2.7 grains (slightly lower frame height)

There 7000 grains per pound or 437.5 grains per oz.

Stan & Mike & I are correct, the two blanks that you are comparing are different. the guides did change the AA

Michael, take the time to study the data on the CCS site.
In the past few months I have built & sold 4 Sage TCR 8 weight rods, ERN varied from 9.66 to 10. 3. They all felt different when test cast.
Hope this helps, Gil

Do you have the model number of those guides so that I can post them?

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Stan Grace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The ERN can be changed slightly by changing guides
> and the resonant frequency can be changed much
> more but the Action Angle as it is defined will
> not change. Michael has pointed out a difference
> in action between the two rods when describing the
> difference in the way they flex. If this is an
> accurate description then it is difficult for me
> to beleve that it is due to the difference in
> guide weights alone. That is why I wouldn't change
> over a rod of my own with out knowing that the ERN
> and AA of the blanks I am comparing was truly
> similar and what the difference was in the weight
> of the guides to be switched. It may be I'm more
> comfortable in making changes based on objective
> analysis than I am on subjective feel.
>
> I would say you most likely changed the AA and ERN
> on your 10# with the described repairs.
>
> Stan Grace
> Helena, MT
> "Our best is none too good"
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at 03/14/07 10:24AM by
> Stan Grace.


Hmmmn... well, I got a new section and decided to redo all of the wraps, otherwise the same guides were used in the same places. I ended up with about seven coats and the rod was distinctly different in the feel. I stripped everything off and rewrapped the blank exactly the same again, but this time with 2 coats of epoxy. Voila, the old "crips action" rod was back.

So, what is the truth? Did I change the CCS data by just varying the number of thread coats? That goes against what you say in that the CCS data is a function of the blank itself.

I agree that the objective data of the CCS is a good thing and the best we have, I'm just saying it isn't a valid measurement of the casting characteristics of a blank. It is only valid for static measurements... until someone can prove otherwise.

Imagine I have two cars, a Mazda Miata that goes 100 mph and a Lincoln Towncar that goes 100 mph. Sure, they both have the same top speed, but they sure feel different to drive.

If you think the Mazda and the Lincoln have the same characteristics I guess you are more comfortable using subjective comparisons. The one thing that I said may vary greatly is resonant freqency. Change it and you will change the feel of the rod but the AA remains the same regardless. That is the one measurement that is constant.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

Actually, I am a much bigger fan of objective measurements, but I also have a scientific background that tells me objective is better than subjective, but that the only worse thing than subjective is an objective measurement that is applied incorrectly or is otherwise not valid. Both cars go 100, but obviosly don't drive the same, both blanks have the same AA and ERN numbers, but have we shown that that means they cast the same?

I appreciate the thoughtful discussion, and hope you take mine for what it is. Not trying to argue, just trying to gain more knowledge myself through the discussion.

This discussion started by comparing two blanks that were said to be similar. It went on to say because the accessories on one differed from those on the other they didn't cast the same and that the accessories must be the reason for the difference. One can cast 100" with many different configurations and many disimilar rods but I don't see a relationship between that fact and the original premise. I'll agree that youcan get the same speed from two different cars.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

I assume Gold ceramic guides could affect the action of the rod, but personally like them to be slower than factory intend, but I'm not sure the guides replacement job would justify the expense ... & be worth it, better choice, if you sure single wires could do better, is just to sell existing rod and make another with single wires like REC's ... stainless steel ceramics, which are muuch heavier than Concepts affect action of the rod indeed ... even on XP 'ies ... my 2 cents