Tom,
For those of us where torque is not a problem, why would we want to Intentionally mis-align our guides (even though it would only minimally affect casting distance)?

You're probably beating a dead horse, but your courageous efforts may convince those less stubborn than myself (or Emory). I admire your tenacity and your never ending dedication to us rodbuilders.

Jim,
I'm not "sold" on the benefits of spiral wrapping as well, but I am interested enough that I do plan to build my next baitcasting rod before the King Salmon start their annual runs up here. In all honesty, in fighting the big Kings, I don't recall torque being an issue on any of the baitcasting rods I have bought or used. Maybe a side-by-side comparison in the field might help me put the issue to rest (for mself). I'm a fairly conservative guy, and I do find the spiral wrap all little too radical to my comfort zone, but I'm open-minded enough as a rod builder to want to build a few (inexpensively), and see what the excitement is all about. Best case scenario is that it does work and I do like the results. Worse case, I don't, I can sell the rod at our annual yard sale, or I can strip off the offending guides and rebuild it the conventional way.

In any case, a little high-spirited discussion is okay with me; I think it does wonders for getting to the heart of the matter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2007 07:06PM by Patrick Vernacchio.

I am probably going to regret this but Toms question deserves and answer and not many are willing to address it. One disadvantage at THIS time is asthetics. The uniquness of the technique is not readily accepted in general in the fishing industry. Granted this is not a reason not to do something but it is one reason why NO major rod building company has taken up the standard. Until someone does it may be a bit of a hard sell. Again dont get me wrong that does not mean it shouldnt be do or is in ANY way wrong. I personally have seen it(as wil all things) has its place. Now the second this is of a bit more concern. Anyone who has been in a long range party boat situation you have seen Wide Open Bites with big fish testing heavy stand up gear with very high drag pressures. There are frequently tangles in the stern corner with 5 tpo 6 guys all on big fish screaming drags. Cutt offs are common but with the line coming off the bottom of the rod there is a risk of being physically cut by a spiral wrapped rod with a screaming fish either while one is attempting to go over another fisherman or when a deck hand goes under group of guys to get to the tangle. I am sure this doesnt happen often but it has happened and MAY have an impact on how well it is accepted in SOME applications. Just some thoughts to keep in mind but again not a reason not to use the technique. I think it is always important to focus on the fact that this is custom rodbuilding and there are a multitude of ways to do things but most importantly we need to keep things in perspective and try to enjoy what we are doing. Both techniques are viable. I dont notice twist in rods I build conventionally but that doesnt mean it aint there. In the few rods I have build in the spiral mode I dont notice any great difference on applying pressure to the fish either but again it doesnt mean it aint so.

Personally if I were going to go through all the trouble of making a spiral wrapped rod I'll just make a spinning rod. Why would somebody build an 80# class standup rod with out having a rod gimbal built onto the butt section of the rod. To be able to use such a rod you have to use a fighting belt with a harness or better yet a fighting chair and a harness combination. With the rod and reel hooked up to the harness and the gimbal in the gimbal nook of the belt or the chair the rod does not torque over. You can let go of the rod and it will stay upright This lets you use your left hand to guide the line back on the reel while you use the right hand to wind the reel, your back and legs are used to pump the fish not your arms. I've caught 1000# marlin and 700# blue fin tuna doing this and my arms never bothered me but my back and legs sure did. Most guys who offshore fish have gimbals built on the rods they use; spinning, live bait, conventional or one of the newer trends fly rods used for big game.

reduces torque totally but there is a neutral area that has to have the load bridged by the blank to the load bearing bookending guides. The 1st bottom 180 degree guide is neutral carring no load even when the blank is heavily flexed as depicted, note the line coming in contact with the 1st 180 degree botom guide at the 9:00 o'clock position, This means the blank supports the load for a double space between the 1st stripper gude on top of the rod and the 2nd180 degree guide on the bottom of the rod.

Note guides and line comming in contact : [www.rodbuilding.org]

Doc,

How much lower do you think the line will be on a spiral rod as compared to a conventional rod? I'm guessing the difference will not exceed more than an inch or so. For this reason I think your concern over this situation is unwarranted. The benefit of not having to fight the torque of a very heavy reel twisting your wrist is far more helpful to permit you to keep your rod under control; especially as you have to pass it from one hand to the other as you cross over other lines.

Have you tried tested a heavy stand up spiral wrap rod in actual fishing conditions on a long raqnge party boat. I have not and probably never will; but I would like to hear your thoughts after giving it a fair trial. At 62 years of age and 144 lbs. I am not rushing to jump into battle with a fish that outweighs me by a bunch. I know my limits and am happy to stay within them. Even when surf casting in the Northeast I wonder how well I would fare if I hook up a trophy Striper. I think that would just about tax my limits. And yes, if it happens I hope it will be on a spiral wrapped surf rod and nothing but.

Dave

Jim,

No offense intended, but if that attitude were held by many, we'd still be driving Model-T's. I think the idea is to try things that may offer additional advantages beyond what we already have. The spirit of adventivness is held only by a few, but we can be thankful for those few.

A lot of things we do in rod building aren't necessary. But if you want to go one better; if you want to keep improving, than any technique or method that offers you something better might be something you'd want to try. You are fighting more torque on your rods than you think you are. If you don't mind, stay put. If you want to make that next improvement or go to that next level, try it.

...................

Doc,

I've addressed that issue before and even said that it is the one possible disadvantage, but only from a sales standpoint - not a practical disadvantge in terms of useage. Same thing with fly rods that use ceramic guides all the way out - some people won't buy them because they don't "look right." But everything takes time to work its way into the mind set of the consumer. These days when I see a rod with guides on top, it looks funny, to me. It just took some getting used to. But I won't argue that many will resist it based on looks alone. But I don't see that as a practical disadvantage in use.

I've seen folks hold their rods up over their heads in order to move past other fishermen on the party boats. Most times, they end up flipping their rods upside down so they don't have to fight the torque as they hold their rods high overhead.

.........

Alexander,

See what I mean? There’s nothing like a good spirited debate (however one-sided) to get the juices flowing. And YOU started it! Nothing much better to do on these cold winter days (unless it’s building a new rod).

It wasn’t too long ago that the “experts” told us that it was absolutely imperative that the rod spine be correctly oriented in order to have a truly functional rod. Now they’re saying it is irrelevant. (I still like to know where the spine is when I build a rod). I haven’t heard lately whether eating eggs or drinking milk is good or bad (I still eat/drink both). Probably, when I’m finally convinced that the “spiral” is the only way to go, it’ll be pointed out that the “torque effect” is negligible (at least for freshwater fishing) and the rod is more efficient with the guides in line.

Chris,
I would think that the photo showing the line path would also be cause for concern. A proponent of Spirals would have taken the shot at an angle so as to minimize the line path’s change of direction.

Tom,
None taken. I tried it.

I find it strange all this talk about spiral wrapped rods. The reason being I have been fishing spiral wrapped down rigger rods since '91 or '92. They are not a new invention. In fact my downrigger rods for salmon are factory tied Fenwicks. I liked the way the worked & later had a friend who was building rods back then custom tye me a pair of 12 foot Lamiglass light, noodle type rigger rods for fishing 6 & 8# line for walleyes on Lake Erie. I can notice a difference on both of these rod configurations, especially the noodle as it would have required more guides if tied conventionally.
Do I think that all conventional tackle rods should or need to be tied spiral.........NAH
Do I think there is a difference in the way they handle as compared to conventionally tied rods........YEAH
But the only way to convince or show someone the difference is to let them try it out.

Just my .02

Regards
Dave

Fishing is Life the rest is just Details

Michael A Taylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------With the rod and reel
> hooked up to the harness and the gimbal in the
> gimbal nook of the belt or the chair the rod does
> not torque over. You can let go of the rod and it
> will stay upright


And this is the argument that seems to always come up. I will still build all my heavy offshore spirals with gimbals simply so I can use my existing belts for comfort...BUT the argument still remains that if a rod is locked into a gimbal and a harness, it MUST be stable.

My responce to those that make that statement is...if you believe that, then you haven't ever fished for big fish with heavy drag in rough seas.

For years I have fished a Braid PowerPlay rod that is 4'8" long and rated for 130#. This is a heavy duty rod made for extreme stand-up fishing. It has an 8" slick butt sleave (testimate to their durability) which puts the reel lower to the angler's center of gravity. It also has Aftco wind-on guides. These guides place the line high over the blank. I have caught many BIG winter bluefins on this very rod here off the coast of North Carolina so I speak from personal experience on this particular matter. Indeed I stand-up fish the proper way...Braid PowerPlay bucket harness and PowerPlay belt...by not holding on to the rod during the fight. Rather, you let go of the rod, bend your knees, keep your back straight, and lean back against the sometimes 40+ pounds of drag that is peeling off the reel faster than you thought possible.

Now, with this setup the rod is completely stable right? HA! You wish. Indeed the rod butt and reel don't move a millimeter as they are locked in place, but the rod tip is free to do its thing! When leaning back hard on this rod I've seen the tip twist over to one side more than once. Keep in mind we're talking about a VERY STIFF 4'8" 130# blank here...and YES the blank WILL twist under pressure. BUT now you happen to be 'locked' into a belt and a harness...the two things that were supposed to give us stability, right? Now when that tip twists the rod twists with it. Attached to the rod you have a reel and a gimbal. Both the reel and gimbal are securely fastened to ME! Things can become a bit dicey especially if the water is rough. Once I was even thrown to the cockpit floor when we rolled over a wave at the same time my rod tip flexed over to the side.

I will forever argue the point that gimbaled rods are stable and won't benefit from spiral wraps.

Jay

Some observations:

1. It's hard to argue with the physics. The line on a conventionally wrapped rod HAS TO produce some torque. The exact same 2 rods, side-by-side, with only the spiral wrap as the difference, would prove it every time. Might not be a lot of difference, but it's there.

2. The amount of torque is fairly negligible on almost all bass rods. But, it can be noticeable. I've not clearly noticed it while fish-fighting. However, I notice it a lot when I'm pulling big spinnerbaits. The spiral wrap sure makes it easier on my wrist.

3. Spiral wrapped rods do look kinda' funny. But, there's no question that a spiral wrapped rod is custom. I like that. No one's gonna' ever just NOT NOTICE one of my bass rods. They may decide it looks stupid, but they'll notice.

4. The simple spiral sure makes the spiral wrap more practical. I stayed away from spiral wraps for a long time (even while knowing they were better) because the various methods seemed to require a lot effort and education. The simple spiral actually makes guide placement easier.

5. Lots of fish are caught on conventionally wrapped rods. Nothing wrong with them. I still fish them quite a bit. I have a number in my arsenal that I've not re-built as spiral.

6. Isn't it great that we're all in a position in life where we can debate the merits of conventional vs. spiral? We're a bunch of lucky folks.

It's a darn good thing FLY RODS have the guides on the bottom, because with the placement of the reel and handle, you would play heck lasting in a fight with a fish of any stature.

Besides, any one that's ever used a spinning rod has to be able to tell the difference in the comfort between the two. JM0.02

Regards......Doug@
TCRds

Although I kept on using gimballs on stand-up rods after switching to spirals many years ago, I could have done without them. You don't need a gimball on a spiral wrapped rod. The harder the fish pulls, the more stable the rod becomes. I've kept installing them only to keep the rod from flopping in a rod holder when there was no load on it.

....................


One thing to keep in mind about the rod spine thing, is that those folks who once said spine was so important never offered any evidence or proof that it was - they just said it was and a lot of folks believed it. Nowadays, they ask those of us who have said all along that it's highly overrated to offer proof of our viewpoint. Well, I'm still waiting for them to prove theirs - they never did and still haven't. It was always a myth. Nothing wrong with spining your rods, but you cannot make a rod stable or make it cast more accurately by doing so.


........................





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2007 08:30PM by Tom Kirkman.

Sure enjoyed another discussion on spirals!

Again, I started building rods in 1981. My first rod that I built was a spiral wrap of my own idea (at the time). I still believe firmly in them and fish with them and build 'em all spiralled. I also saw that tip top twisting to near 90 degrees to the side on my factory traditional rod. That's what got the idea in my mind and where my thinking came from back then. I kinda still think that way today (kinda crooked and canted to one direction lol)...just the nature of da beast, I guess.

Thanks for the lively conversation/ideas.

Putter
Williston, ND

Hi Putter, Since you noticed the twisting as far back as the early 1980's, do you suppose the twisting is more prevalent in fiberglass rods rather than in graphite rods? I've sat on the sidelines of this issue for quite some time, so I still don't have a strong opinion on the matter, but I do have questions.

Thanks

I would think it would be (staying in the same type rod - say walleye trolling rods for example). I would think that fiberglass would show this "twisting" trait more readily than graphite.

I guess I wouldn't be so one-sided on the view point if I hadn't seen this and started building rods because of it. If I could have found a factory rod spiral wrapped back then, I may have never sought out how to do this...

Putter
Williston, ND

The longer and the smaller diameter the blank is, the more likely that actual twist will occur. It can happen on any rod with the guides located on top of the rod, but again, the longer and smaller diameter the blank is the more likely that it will actually happen and the worse the twist will be when it does happen.

....................

The most common complaint that I've heard, and this comes mainly from the bass fisherman, on the spirals is that they get tangled to a greater extent than the rods with the guides on straight. This happens both in the rod locker and they can be harder to store on the decks as well. The spiral wrap can be a little hard on the guides and is enough to deter some guys from using them since they're not always convinced of a significant need on these rods.

mark

Tom,
I would agree with you about the rod length but not about the diameter. The smaller diameter means that there will be a shorter moment arm and therefore less torque. For two rods that are otherwise equal in terms of power and action and that have identical guides the one with the larger diameter has the longer moment arm and therefore more torque.
Plus a smaller diameter rod that has the same power as a larger diameter rod will necessarily have thicker walls and therefore higher hoop strength which means that it will have more strength in resisting the torque.

With so much focus on the relative benefits of Spiral Wraps I came up with an idea that might add some clarity to the discussion.

Picture a rod built for as a tool for demonstrating puroposes only. My idea is to build a rod with a normal grips, reel seat, and foregrip. Attach the Butt Guide and Bumper Guide to the blank as normal with thread and finish epoxy. All other guides will be wrapped onto individual sections of hollow blanks that are long enough to accomodate the guide and wrap lengths. The ID's of these Guide Tube Sections must be slightly larger than the OD of the blank in the precise places where each needs to sit to provide proper stress distribution.

These floating tubes (each holding one guide) be prevented from sliding out of position by bands of D thread wraps at either end. I think permagloss would serve well to finish the wraps and also be create a durable surface against which the tubes can rotate.

Then the line is threaded through all the guides and out the tip.

I hope this I have made this easy to picture. In essence it is the same as any Simple Bumper Wrap rod but unique in that each guide forward of the Bumper Guide is free to rotate. It would also be valuable if the tip could rotate upon itself.

Attach the line to a fixed point and start applying pressure. This will enable the guides to move freely . Guess where they will end up?