Hello everybody this is my first post and its about the stability that is claimed when useing spiral wrapped rods. i personaly have always built my casting rods the traditional way and have never had a problem with rod performance my rods dont twist no matter the size of the load i put on the rod i always find the spine of the rod and locate the guides accordingly spinning rods underneith, casting and heavier rods on top now i have seen plenty of factory rods twisting under a heavy load especialy the larger line class of boat rods. now having said that you may be able to get away with building along the straitest part of the blank on the lighter blanks but its my oppinion that the heavier the blank the more pronounced the twisting effect ive seen it and felt it which made me a firm believer in finding a blanks spine and building along that access produces a much better finished product. thanks for reading, i look foward to reading your responces. please disreguard my bad spelling.

Alexander,
Your observations are valid ones, on fortunately I haven't been so lucky. When I put my conventional rod/ reel combos with my hand closest to the reel palm up and the rear hand palm down and load the rod the rod just flobs over due to reel weight and guide torque. On my spiral wraps doing the same thing the rod flobs over with no tension, locks upright with tension, and if I release the tension the rod starts flobbing over slowly till I return the tension, which pulls the reel back upright into the stable position. All my rods have been splined for many years as it's now a habit.

Alexander,

I hope you realize that you’re opening a “pandora’s box”. I too have no problems with the “traditional” setup (regardless of the orientation of the spine), so I see no need to convert to the “spiral wrap” to fix a problem that doesn’t exist, at least, not for me. I use very small guides (5.5 and 6’s) which have a very small moment arm and whatever torque is incurred, I can’t detect it. I don’t disagree in principal with the proponents of the “spiral wrap”, and I think if torque is as big a problem for them as they claim, they definitely need to fix it. The “almost straight” line travel is a small price they have to pay for curing their pesky torque problem.

Anyway, brace yourself because you’re probably going to get informed as to the error of your ways.

Hi Alexander and welcome to the Forum. The benefits of spiral wraps are much greater than you will get when your guides are on the top of the blank; whether you place them on the "Effective Spine" or not. You speak of the spine as if it was a "thing" but it is not. This may be a bit confusing to you as it was to most of us when we were first presented this idea. I suggest you run a search for the words "Effective Spine" being sure to search ALL DATES. Pay special attention to the posts by Tom Kirkman on this subject. His explanations of Effective Spine are the best I have ever seen.

As for the added stability of that Spiral Wraps provide here are some things to consider. On heavy rods we usually use heavier reels. On a conventional layout rod the reel itself is almost always leaning one way or the other; as the force of gravity is drawing it to the lowest point it can rotate. Your wrist is doing the work to keep the reel upright. When fighting a fish.. especially a large fish.. this is a handicap. You want to use all your strength against the fish and as little as possible on other things. The spiral wrap ( the simple Bumper Wrap is my favorite kind) will use the force applied against you by the fish to help keep the reel upright. This way you are using less work to accomplish the same effect on the fish.. or you will have more strength to apply than you would if you were having to support the reel. Try it.. it's easy to set up a test ... and you will see very quickly the great advantage this is.



The heavier the fight the more this works to your advantage. You do not state which of the heavier class rods you use. High quality ceramic guides will perform well for all rods up to the 80# class. For 80# and above you are limited in your choice of roller guides to the All American Spiral Rollers designed by John Mantele. Visit their website listed on the margin to the left. They are a Sponsor of this site. The guides are called "@#$%&". Also run a search under All Dates for All American Roller Guides (exact phrase) and for @#$%& Guides.

RodMaker Magazine Issues Vol-5=Issue #6 and Vol-6 Issue #5 cover the topic well. Visit the RodMaker Magazine website and you can order these and other back issues of that excellent publication.

As you will see, there is a ton of information within easy access on this Forum by using the Search feature. You are wise to consider that the most accurate and thorough information will be found in the pages of RodMaker Magazine. That is the single most reliable and comprehensive source of rod building information anywhere. The Forum discussions add life to the topic as rod builders report on their actual experience as they use the methods and techniques which they learn from RodMaker. Opinions may vary but sound advice is always valuable. I cannot over stress the value of a subscription to RodMaker for anyone who enjoys making custom fishing rods.

The amount of torque is by definition the force times the moment arm. The major moment arms are the distances from the center of the blank to the point on the guides that the line touches the guides which is where the force is applied. The sum of the moment arms at each of the guides times the force from the line at each of the guides is equal to the total torque.
There is a secondary source of torque but it is much smaller that is the result of the fact that the blank is not uniformly stiff around the circumference of the blank. We call this the spine. The reason that this torque is much less is because the moment arm is much shorter. The length of the moment arm gets a little complicated but basically goes like this. There are two axis that run through the blank. One is called the S1 to S2 axis or the stiff axis and the other is called the N1 to N2 axis or soft axis. These two axis are 90 degrees apart or perpendicular to each other. But where they cross each other is only at the exact center of the blank if the blank has no spine. If the blank has a spine where they cross is offset from the center of the blank. Where they cross to the center of the blank is the moment arm that is the result of the spine. If a blank had the strongest possible spine the point where the two axis cross could only be from the center of the blank to the surface of the blank which is obviously shorter than the distance from the center of the blank to the point on the guide where the line touches. And no blank is going to have that strong a spine. This says that the torque from the guides is the primary cause for rod twist or rotation not the spine.
A complication to this is the fact that mainly due to the way that the material is wrapped around the mandrel the spine does not run straight up the blank but tends to rotate up the blank. Because it tends to rotate this means that what has been called the effective spine or the overall spine will actually move as the blank is deflected more and more
All of this suggests to me that attempting to locate the spine and then mount the guides on the blank relative to the spine is for the most part a waste of time.
By the way, the reason the the soft axis and the stiff axis often do not appear to be 90 degrees from each other and the two stiff points and two soft points do not appear to be 180 degrees from each other is due to this offset of the crossing point of the S1 to S2 and N1 to N2 axis.
I also tend to agree with Jim about spiral wraps. For some heavy rods the stability gained may very well be an advantage. However, if the line is directly over the center line of the rod, which is the way most conventionally wrapped rods are held, there is no moment arm so there is no torque and in my opinion a spiral wrap is a solution for a problem that does not exit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2007 01:17PM by Emory Harry.

Jim,

I think you might do well to take a deep breath and relax.

Just because many rod builders like myself are sold on the benefits of the Spiral Wrap doesn't mean you have to like it. This is not about brow beating non-believers into submission. I came to appreciate this configuration by testing it out. Actually, all it took to open my eyes was a quick comparison using Tom Kirkman's demonstration set up at one of the Rod Expos in Charlotte, NC.

The benefits of Spiral Wrapped rods increase as the weight of the rod and reel and the fighting power of the fish go up. That would explain why you may not notice any distanct advantage on your light rods. It does not take much effort to keep a small baitcaster upright. There is still a mechanical advantage but it is on a smaller scale. The same applies to small guides that sit low on the blank. The benefits are reduced according to the scale. While you may not notice any diference someone else might find it significant.

My main concern is over your implied concerns about the comments you anticipate from others on this Forum. You seem to be digging your heels in expecting to be assaulted by a horde of fanatical spiral wrappers. Is that how you perceive the character of the discussions on this Forum. Is it us versus them here?

I would be very disappointed if that is the sum total of all the hard work and well meaning contributions that go into keeping this Forum the vital resource that it is.

I strongly encourage you in a friendly way to reconsider your position. We come together here is a spirit of cooperation to further our shared appreciation of all aspects of the wonderful craft of building custom fishing rods. Surely all of us are best served by friendly discourse.

Best regards,

Dave

I was a skeptic myself. On my smaller rods, there isn't much difference, but it is still there. Some people notice the difference even on ice rods that I've spiralled. The larger the rod/fish you get into, the more the difference can be felt no matter where you orient the spine. I never viewed it as a rod performance issue as I don't think there is any real performance added (or lost), at least beyond the theoretical, unless you get into some rods that can benefit by getting away with fewer guides (though that in itself can spark debates) but rather an enhancement to actually fishing. Spiral or not, the rod will still do its job at the same performance level, but at the user end it can make for a more comfortable system. At least in my world of smallish rods, how much of a difference, or if there is any felt difference at all for that matter, depends greatly on the user. I never noticed my rods were trying to go "guides down", ever.. until I tried a spiral and then it was "huh... how about that..."

For my own casting rods (I'm primarily a spinner) they run about 50/50. I like the ones I have, but it's not a requirement to rewrap the ones that aren't. My fish are too small to be much issue. They do make a nice conversation piece on the water though.

Amen,,,Dave Gilberg !

Emory,

Imagine you are on a 30' (+ or -) open boat in open water and there are 3 foot swells. Two identical rods and reels are available to you. Both are 80# stand up models with identical Penn Internation reels loaded with 800yds (+ or -) of 80# mono. I do not have accurate weights for these reels with line.. but think you will agree they would weigh several pounds each.

How easy will it be to keep these reels balanced on the 0 axis of that rod with no fish on the line?

Let's now picture a 300# Blue Fin Tuna on the hook of each rig. ( Let's agree that the efforts of the fish will be identical)
The line extends about 1/8th of a mile behind the boat. This is not 300# of dead weight but a ferociously powerful animal who has never been as desperate as it is now.

You immediately reach for your tried and true CONVENTIONAL outfit. This is your rig of choice because of all the scientific study you have done on the subject. So your fight begins... and you get accustomed to the battle.

Now you must trade to the SPIRAL WRAPPED rod to experience the difference in real life application.

Here is what I think you will discover:

1- Your wrist will feel immediate reief from the strain it was under trying to keep the very heavy reel on top of the 0 axis of the rod.
Remember that the boat is rising and falling with each swell. You are working hard just to keep your balance. The reel plus line
combined weigh several pounds. The force applied by the Tuna will contribute to keepint the reel stable on top of the rod only on the
Spiral Rod.

2- You can gain more line on the Tuna with the SPIRAL rod and with less effort. This is partly from the strength you regain from your
prior battle keeping the reel on the 0 axis and also from the greater stabiity of the rod guides.

3- You will not be happy to switch back to the CONVENTIONAL rod.

Emory,

Imagine you are on a 30' (+ or -) open boat in open water and there are 3 foot swells. Two identical rods and reels are available to you. Both are 80# stand up models with identical Penn Internation reels loaded with 800yds (+ or -) of 80# mono. I do not have accurate weights for these reels with line.. but think you will agree they would weigh several pounds each.

How easy will it be to keep these reels balanced on the 0 axis of that rod with no fish on the line?

Let's now picture a 300# Blue Fin Tuna on the hook of each rig. ( Let's agree that the efforts of the fish will be identical)
The line extends about 1/8th of a mile behind the boat. This is not 300# of dead weight but a ferociously powerful animal who has never been as desperate as it is now.

You immediately reach for your tried and true CONVENTIONAL outfit. This is your rig of choice because of all the scientific study you have done on the subject. So your fight begins... and you get accustomed to the battle.

Now you must trade to the SPIRAL WRAPPED rod to experience the difference in real life application.

Here is what I think you will discover:

1- Your wrist will feel immediate reief from the strain it was under trying to keep the very heavy reel on top of the 0 axis of the rod.
Remember that the boat is rising and falling with each swell. You are working hard just to keep your balance. The reel plus line
combined weigh several pounds. The force applied by the Tuna will contribute to keepint the reel stable on top of the rod only on the
Spiral Rod.

2- You can gain more line on the Tuna with the SPIRAL rod and with less effort. This is partly from the strength you regain from your
prior battle keeping the reel on the 0 axis and also from the greater stabiity of the rod guides.

3- You will not be happy to switch back to the CONVENTIONAL rod.

Best regards and with great admiration for your many enlightening insights,

Dave Gilberg

Alexander,

Your rods are definitely attempting to twist - you just don't realize it because you have nothing to compare them too.

I've had many anglers who told me that they don't need to expend any effort with a traditional casting rod try a spiral wrapped rod, and suddenly they see that they are, in fact, expending extra energy to keep their rods upright.

...........

Sorry for the double post. Is there any way I can delete it?

I am a fervent believer in spiral rods, but in following these kinds of debates from a safe distance I have a couple of conclusions/thoughts:

1) Spiral Wrapped rods are inherently more stable than guides-on-top rods.
2) If you build two rods that are identical, except one is a a spiral and the other guides-on-top, you will notice a difference. The difference gets larger the heavier-duty the rod is. So you will notice the difference more on a standup tuna rod than on a freshwater casting rod.

In my observations, though, many proponents of spiral wrapping -- and I want to stress that I'm not singling out any indididuals here -- are so enthusiastic about the method that they make it seem like the greatest thing since sliced bread, and (often untintentionally) overstate its effects. When a fisherman hears all these great things about spiral rods, and finally tries one, the response is often, "What's the big deal?" I know I've heard the same thing a bunch of times.

Yes, spiral wrapped rods are more stable than conventionally wrapped rods, and I firmly believe that as a result they perform better and fish better. I for one will never build another conventional rod. But we have to be honest that the difference, while far from trivial, is not as great as we sometimes make it out to be when we talk about it. Most guys, after all, do just fine with factory-built conventional rods that most of us would not fish with if we had a choice. And they don't even notice line twist or the line slapping against the blank -- they just care if it catches fish, and don't look at it as closely as we do.

When I explain the benefits of spiral wrapping to someone, I almost always preface my remarks with something along the lines of "Some people make exaggerated claims about the benefits of the method, or in their enthusiasm unintentionally suggest that the method's benefits are greater than they actually are. Don't expect this to blow you away; the difference isn't big enough to knock your socks off. But if you keep an open mind and look closely, you will see that the spiral performs better."

That's just my two cents. Feel free to disagree (fire away!)...

Dave,
I have never said that I did not think that there were not conditions under which a spiral wrapped rod would have advantages. You have picked a good example of one of the conditions when a spiral wrap would definately be an advantage.
However, when that Blue Fin took off at an angle to the rod the torque would actually be higher than with a conventionally wrapped rod. Now admittedly in most cases you could swing around so that the rod was again pointing at the fish.
I feel that both spiral and conventionally wrapped rods have advantages and disadvantages and have their place.

Dave,
No disrespect and I’m sorry if my comments to Alexander has somehow offended your sensibilities or put you on the defensive. I merely meant to validate his sanity and let him know that the “traditional” guide placement is still viable.

If you remember my post dated December 1, 2006 (spiral wrap vs. conventional), I stated “I can’t help but wonder if anyone out there, besides me, is NOT hooked on “Spiral Wraps”. What followed was two pages of spirited and sometimes fanatical comments extorting the benefits of the spiral. All were well intended and civil in spirit. I didn’t think any of them were meant to be offensive and I certainly didn’t take any offence.

As far as the way that I perceive the character of the discussions on this forum, I think it is great. Many of the posts are informative and very educational. There are occasional disagreements, but I suppose if we all agreed on everything it would make for a dull world.

Even though it could be said that we can agree to disagree (especially on the “spiral” issue), it’s probably good for some readers to be able to hear both sides of the issues to better help them decide for themselves what works for them.

Jim,
I could not agree with you more. There are almost always two sides to an issue and there sure seem to be on this issue. I guess we all have different opinions based upon our experiences, bias, and how we interpret the facts as we see them.

Still waiting for a disadvantage to a spiral wrapped rod to be listed.

Even if the fish took off at an angle - you loosen your grip and the spiral wrapped rod will follow the direction the load is coming from, remaining nice and stable and keeping the reel right up top where you can still fight the fish in comfort. At that point, the torque goes back to zero. But with the conventional wrapped rod, more torque or less, it will still flip upside down if you loosen your grip. So you'd still have to fight both the fish and the rod, just as before.

.............

I was thinking pretty much the same thing. In an actual battle with a fish, if the fish moves off to one side the fishermen just pivots his body a bit to one side or the other which immediately puts the fish directly below or directly off the tip of the rod again. So you never have any torque on a spiral type rod. You just follow the fish with the rod and if you watch somebody fighting a fish you'll see that this is what they do naturally. With the conventional type rod, that torque is always going to be there no matter what you do. The only way to eliminate it would be to try to hold the perfect on the 0 degree axis above the fish and assume that the fish will never move to either side by even a single degree or two. Not likely.

Jim,

I'm glad we agree on the benefits of sharing differing opinions in a cordial manner. I do recall the "spirited" posts on the thread you started regarding spiral wraps. I take offense with any statements that demean others or promote division in the rod building community. I can understand how it may have seemed like you were being swamped with all the comments of support for Spiral Wraps. If any comments put ou on the defensive then we all would have been better served had they been expressed in more congenial terms. This is not a competition. We are not seeking to formulate the one and only acceptable way to make a certain type of fishing rod. We prize innovation and excellence and, above all, the joy that comes from sharing these ideas in a friendly and gentile manner. The success of this Forum is testimony of the civilized conduct that has been its standard.

When I learn a better way of doing something I'm happy to share that with others. If someone tries it and comes to an opposing conclusion
it will not change my position. There are many ways to do everything and I celebrate that diversity. I am happy that Emory is pleased to use conventional rods. His happiness with them doesn't diminish my joy when fishing with a bumper wrapped rod.

I also heartily agree with Chris Garrity that many proponents of spiral wraps got carried away in their enthusiasm for this variation. I may have been guilty of that as well. The same can be said of the New Concept Guide System. We are, after all, mere human beings with all the proclivities, eccentricities and variations that are evidenced throughout our species. I hope my response to your post serves to remind us all that we benefit from our attempts to keep an open mind and conduct our conversations in the spirit of friendly cooperation.

I'm glad we had this opportunity to speak our thoughts. As is common when thoughts are shared with kind conderation, a greater understanding is the result.

If you will be attending the Expo in High Point I hope to meet you and shake your hand.

Dave

I think the strongest point to keep in mind here is that the greater the load applied to the blank, the more pronounced the benefits of spiral wrapping will be. On a freshwater bass rod, maybe the differences are slight - but they are there, it's simple engineering statics/dynamics and mechanics of materials. I have not built a spiral wrapped rod yet - but am currently bonding the rear grip and reel seat for the first spiral wrapped rod I'll build. This rod will be an ice fishing rod - built for jigging lake trout in Lake Superior through the ice. Good chance of tying into a 20+ lb laker at a depth of 200-300 feet of water. All this on a 36" long rod. I don't think, I KNOW that the spiral wrapped rod will help me to control the fish better and cause me less fatigue while doing it. Another potential benefit is that I will likely end up with one less guide on a comparable standard wrapped casting rod. Trip is in 2 weeks - I'm so excited I can hardly stand it!!!