Gentlemen,

I was asked this question in another forum and did a search here but could not find any information relating to this. Can I have your expert feedback whether there is any critcal stress to the the system when the line touches the blank under load, especially at the tip half of the rod?

Thanks,

Anthony Lee

Obviously, this refers to a conventionally built baitcast rod.

Anthony Lee

Anthony,

I am certainly no expert on this subject. But logic would dictate that any line that makes contact with the blank while under a load IE fighting a fish, can not be good. As the line is under load with it either running off the reel or being reeled onto the spool it would cause friction which isn't good for any blank.

Maybe while fighting a fish the line doesn't touch or rub on the blank?

Again take my thoughts with a grain of salt as I am no expert.

Regards

Scott

Well, yes and no. Ideally you'd want to keep that line off the blank under periods of heavy load. But, in reality and with some blanks the only way to do that would be to use extremely high framed guides or a excessive amount of lower framed guides. Both have drawbacks. The former exacerbates the tendency of all conventional rods with the guides on top of the rod, to twist under load. You're creating longer lever arms with those higher framed guides. When you move to lower framed guides, you may have to use so many that excess weight now begins to undermine the efficiency of your rod.

I would recommend using lower framed guides, particulary near the mid and tip areas of the blank. And I'd use enough so that under periods of moderate load the line won't touch the blank. But when you put an extremely or maximum load on the rod, you may find that the line will still contact the blank. That's okay. The maximum load is something that generally is only going to happen during brief periods and since the rod is used to move and pull the fish, and the reel only use to take up slack line (if you're using your equipment correctly) there isn't really going to be any undue problems with this.

Somebody once asked me what they should consider the "maximum load" to be. Well, you can look at it a couple ways. One, once the limit of your reel's drag setting is reached, you can't put any more load on the rod. The drag will simply slip. Then two, a rod will only withstand so much load before it will fail. Same for the line. I think you'll just have to use your own common sense in this regard. If you take a look at the Hanneman Common Cents System, you'll notice that he choose a standard deflection equal to one third of the rod's total length to indicate that a rod was "fully loaded." (For instance - on a rod 84 inches in length, you'd deflect the tip a distance of 28 inches.) There is some valid justification for this and it would at least provide you with some means of deflection amount that could serve as the maximum you'd use for setting up your guides.

Use the static guide placement system written about here in our online library and use a deflection amount that is equal to 1/3rd the rod's total length as your maximum load parameter and I think you'll be okay. Sure, you can always flex the rod more and get the line down on the blank, but this is one of those things that where you must exercise a bit of a compromise.

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Thank you Tom for taking time off to pen such a long and comprehensive explanation. Really appreciate it.

Anthony Lee

That one is going to get printed and put on the wall in the shop - thanks Tom - maybe they will believe YOU!

Don't count on it.

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Courious - could you add just a few words if important. Does the kind of line matter say for instance braid vs Trilene rubbing on a high modulus popping rod blank about ten inches back from the tip. I need all the little facts that I can to get some of them to convert to spiral!

I completely agree with Tom's explanation but think that there is one additional point that should be made. The reason that I have usually seen used to justify using enough guides to keep the line from touching the rod under heavy load is that when the line touches the rod it results in friction between the line and the rod. I think in the vast majority of fishing situations this is bogus.
When the rod is at its maximum deflection during casting the line is not moving. The line actually has the maximum velocity during casting when the rod is virtually straight. If the line is not moving there cannot be any friction between the line and the rod.
When fighting a fish the rod should be pumped and the line retrieved as the rod is dropped. When the rod is dropped it tends to straighten so again at maximum rod deflection the line is not moving or moving very little so friction between the line and the rod is not a problem.
When a fish makes a hard run the tip of the rod should be dropped, or the fish will force it down, which again will tend to straighten the rod and so there is no problem with friction between the line and the rod.
So in the vast majority of fishing situations the logic for putting enough guides on the rod to prevent the line from touching the rod and causing friction just does not hold water. It just results in to many guides being used that just adds unnecessary weight and reduces the rods performance.

Which comes back to a little education on the part of the customer, by the rod builder, on how to properly use a fishing rod.

I don't think the line is going to "rub" very much unless you really do a poor job of guide placement or simply use far too few. I have seen some surf rods, 9 and 10 footers that had just 3 or 4 guides and watched fishermen "winching" in fish and the line would part. These were extreme situations where the line went beyond mere touching or rubbing against the rod blank. In each case, the line actually dropped down below the level of the blank owing to so few guides being used. The line failure in these cases were caused not so much by rubbing on the blank, but due to the extreme angle of the line as it ran across the surface of the guide under tremendous load. I cannot vouch for the condition of the line nor the guide surface in these instances. If they were in poor condition then they certainly contributed to the failure.

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One of my pet peeves is the "taboo" of the line EVER contacting the blank. I gladly accept the tradeoff of fewer guides to benefit from lighter weight (toward the tip) for the adverse effects of the line contacting the blank when it's under load. I also use low (TLSG) #5.5 and #6 single foot guides to minimize the moment arm (lever) that the "spiral" fans are so concerned about. They'd probably cringe if they saw the line pull down alongside the rod when it’s under load. I don't think it hurts anything and it's never caused me any problems or failures of any kind. I should mention that I use braid which some believe is more abrasive. I agree with Tom when he says “load is something that generally is only going to happen during brief periods and since the rod is used to move and pull the fish, and the reel only used to take up slack line (if you're using your equipment correctly)”, however, I have often had to “horse” fish out of cover by winching and cranking at the same time....not a problem. In spite of the line rubbing on the blank and the subsequent friction incurred, no failures of any kind...no grooving or discoloration of the blank finish. Granted, this is my opinion based on my own experience.
Sometimes happiness really is "not being smart enough to know what to worry about". I do think that if you are going to cheat on something intelligently, you have to have to be aware of and be willing to accept the consequences.

We need to remember that ALL RODS are not created equal -

There are some instances where line touching can be quite harmful. On a stand up fast action tuna stick poor sets up allowing line rubbing can be rather destructive. I have see a few with the blank fibers exposed due to poor placement.

My situation on popping rods seems to have gone the full circle -

A lot of my problems are related to stripping line at drag settings when a red or a large bass takes off under a boat which moves line at speed in contact with the blank. High sticking with line stripping is the norm and not the exception. Surprisingly we catch redfish and bass in the same water!

Fiber Glass blanks that could take punishment beyond belief
Graphite with fairly good toughness
High performance graphite with minimal toughness

Working with set ups that are easily repeatable (Glass/Intermediate Mod)
Custom set up for each blank (High Modulus)

High Frame V guide frames that torque
Low frame fly guides (Alconites) to reduce torque
(Take a lot of Alconite fly sixs to keep the line clear on a popping rod)
Guide frame choice based on fisherman experience level

Conventional progressive guide placement spacing
More and more guides to clear line
Increased use of high V frame for some selected customers

I am in the business of selling rods and do not turn conventional guide placement work down. Everyone wants a high quality lighter rod and they really do not realize just what they are asking a builder to do. My rod warranty does come with a cost. I require customers to spend the time reading the Rodmaker Article on Broken Rods and go through a hands on session demoing each type of failure mode described in the article.

Customer education on rod use seems to go in one ear and out the other. I can talk to them at length and get them in the boat and the high stick is enivitable. The correct guide choice and spacing is about the best way that I can reduce breakage.

I am getting to the point that I wish some of the major rod production units would hit the market with a spiral wrap. Maybe their marketing of the concept would be successful

Gon Fishn






Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2006 11:36AM by Bill Stevens.