Mark (Fisher),
You should call Stephen and ask him....if nothing else it would provide for a good laugh.

Andy

Very good. I see what they're doing. Makes sense. Reminds me a little of the old Howald Process blanks where they added the scrim (glass fiber) by winding it around the mandrel (like we wind thread around the blank to hold the guides) and then the main power fibers were aligned along the mandrel. Of course, using graphite to do the job means you get more power for the same weight or the same power for less weight.

In later years, much of the glass scrim used by blank makers is no longer woven - it's a chopped mat type of lay up. But it's still glass and still heavier than graphite.

Like the old Howald Process, what CTS is doing requires an additional step so more labor is involved, but it should definitiely get you similar power at less weight without any loss in hoop strengh.

...........



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2006 09:39PM by Tom Kirkman.

Andy,
What weight line will this rod be availble in: 30,50,80, etc? Will it be available for heavy duty use such as marlin, giant tuna, etc? Rods begin to show their weaknesses with this type of fishing and do take a beating.
Sanford Hochman

Gosh I never thought of the Howald comparison....that's a great analogy really. And the Howald blanks were not only super duarble, but had that livelyfeel to them as well, quite similiar to the CTS feel.

Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing Products

Sanford,
Probbaly not....these will mostly be tapers for Bass, Walleye, Light Salwater such as Striper, Redfish Speckled Trout etc...We may viist that genre of blanks at some point, but for now it will be the freshwater/light salt stuff.

Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing Products

Thanks Andy,
Sanford

I admit to not knowing anything about CTS, and science or whatever this is about was something I tried to avoid when in school. I do wonder though why anyone would want to fish with a rod that is capable of almost doubling back on itself?????? The Whopper Stopper does that and it makes a wonderful advert. but huh???? I want my rod to work against a fish and it's not doing that if it bends over double.

That's a very good point, Grant. One of the reasons for so much fatality of fish when released is exactly that reason. It's fun, but not very productive.
Sanford

I believe that the picture was just to illustrate what strength/capability of the blank. Under normal fishing conditions, the two that I have are fast action and don't bend like that unless they are seriously over lined. Great rods

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I was enjoying my Orvil R and Brew while reading this interesting post. The information in the posts and the hot links gave me an insight to the making of rod blanks of the future. I would think that AD and CTS are to be commended. When Tiger Woods sees the references to "reduced swing weight" in the CTS technical literature he will want the same thing on his yacht that he probably already has in his golf bag!

Grant,
The photo was simply put up to illustrate the effectiveness of the helical layup and the engineering from CTS. Of course when you hook a fish, everyone realizes you're supposed to angle the rod such that you bend into the mid/butt for maximum power duringa fight. You don't fight a fish with the tip of the rod...at least you're not supposed to! The problem is that of abuse/breakage due to high sticking.....I recieve alot of email from guys claiming that the helical layup does nothing to reduce breakage from high sticking....the picture shows otherwise, I think you would agree.
Comparing the whopper stopper to a CTS is like comparing a Yugo to a Ferrari, it's not a fair comparison of anything, because a whopper stopper is made form cheap E glass, probably weighs about 6oz. and costs about $15.00 it's ceryainly not what I would want to build a quality fishing rod on


Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing Products

Grant....besides, a rod with guides on it and line strung through it would not allow the rod to bend that way anyway under an ordinary load, unless you have a fish that is doing some serious aerial manuevers! But knowing the tips have that kind of durability/strength would make me feel better should one unexpectedly rush under the boat or around an obstacle.

Andy Dear

Andy,
I have been away for awhile and just read this thread and frankly as is usual with many of your posts I do not know quite where to start to respond to some of your statements.

First, graphite has been used to provide hoop strength for a lot of years. That is nothing new. If you choose to call what CTS is doing other than scrim fine but it is providing the same function.
Second, The reason a mesh is used or the graphite or glass scrim is wound on the mandrel in both directions is if it is only wound in one direction, as you suggest is the case with the CTS blanks, Then it will only provide resistance to torque in one direction. However, if the graphite or glass fibers are wound on in both directions then resistance to torque will be in both directions which is obviously what is required.
Third, Whether glass or graphite scrim is used is a trade off. One is not necessarily good and the other bad. It depends upon the application or how the rod is going to be used. Graphite will result in a lighter blank but more fragile blank, glass will result in a heavier but tougher blank. Glass has approximately four times the strain energy as standard modulus graphite. As modulus goes up strain energy or toughness goes down.
Fourth, The effective modulus of elasticity of graphite drops very rapidly with angle, as Tom has pointed out, and graphite can not be wound at a high angle on the tip sections of rods, it will not bend into a small radius. Which means when graphite is used as scrim or to provide hoop strength it loses a lot of its inherent stiffness or strength so more of it has to be used to achieve the same hoop strength.
Fifth, Using a high modulus material in the butt sections of blanks and a lower modulus in the tip sections seems to be to be a very good idea but it is not something new and certainly not unique to CTS. I know that the new Rainshadow blanks use this approach and I know Lamiglas has been using this approach in a number of their blanks for some time.
Sixth, What you are calling the helical scan does nothing to provide more protection against high sticking regardless of what your picture shows because it is not the scrim that fails first when a rod is high sticked it is the longitudinal fibers, usually those under compression, that fail first.
Seventh, Sensitivity is a lot more complex then stiffness divided by weight.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2006 12:10AM by Emory Harry.

Emory,
Thank you for your input...it has been noted. You and I simply have to agree to disagree on the merits of the CTS product. Nobody is forcing you to buy one if you prefer RainShadow or Lamiglas....those are fine products as well, and I would urge you to stick with them. But until you have actually tried a CTS blank, I would politely ask that you not try to dismantle my reputation or any attempt made by me to provide the rodbuilding community with a great product with some really neat attributes at a great price. It's not fair to me or to the builders that have enjoyed the benefits that these blanks offer.

Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing Products

I assume the "dual helix" may mean that the graphite ribbon is wound in opposite directions. That would take care of the torque problem noted, if it was actually needed.

The graphite ribbon scrim wouldn't provide any stiffness nor power, but then, it's really not intended to do that. If it can do the same job as the glass scrim, but at less weight, then I see an advantage.

I think the toughness or durability of blanks probably lies more in the diameter and wall thickness than anything else. Yes, glass is tougher but in this position I'm not sure that for what we do with a fishing rod you don't really give up all that much with graphite. You certainly gain a great deal in terms of lighter weight and better response. Toughness comes not only from the material but from the design used as well. I'd like to see just what actual "toughness" is gained or lost when glass scrim is replaced with graphite scrim.

I've had the pleasure of using both Graphite USA and CTS blanks and think both are among the best quality blanks made today. The GUSA always took the small diameter, thick wall approach which made them tough, but somewhat heavier than other makes with similar power. However, the CTS blanks do not seem at all heavy compared with other blanks of similar power. I haven't weighed any against their respective powers, but anyone who picks up a CTS model is not going to notice any unusual weight there.


................

Tom,
I agree with everyone of your points....very well put. I have done some weight comparisons with various blanks (as have other individuals who have purchased CTS from me) and I can tell you that the CTS Tournament series is virtually identical in weight with the GLX blanks and SCV blanks (at about 20-30% less cost). BUT here is the thing, the CTS series actually has more material and more power in the butt section of the rod than than most models of the aforementioned 2 blanks. So, if we were to construct an identical taper to a SCV or a GLX, and then weigh them, the CTS would actually be lighter than those 2. That's why I always tell folks that weighing different blanks is not really a fair comparison, because no 2 brands are exactly alike in taper construction, materials and design, and even within brands and models there is as much of a 10% variance between exact models because of subtle weight differences in pre-preg resi content.

But on the average, power for power, taper for taper the CTS are as light or lighter than the others.

Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing Products

I wish I had not consumed so much of the alcoholic beverage. Disgesting this content through the fog is difficult. I am now ordering iced tea and hoping that I can comprehend the subject matter a little better. One question - does all of this apply to both series of CTS blanks mentioned in the original post. Is this new technology to be included in the Pro Series? If so I am looking forward to receiving preordered CTS Blanks.

Gon Fishn

Andy,
I have never even seen one of the CTS blanks but I do not doubt that they are very fine blanks and that the design is excellent. I do not take any exception to the blanks, how can I without having even seen one. I take exception not to the CTS blanks but to the claims that you make about them particularly as compared to other blanks.
Also the post that I made was not really aimed at you personally so much as at the claims that you made. I certainly was not attempting to dismantle your reputation. I think that your reputation is something that you determine, I do not.

Emory Harry Wrote:.
> Third, Graphite will result in a lighter blank but more fragile blank, glass will result in a heavier but
> tougher blank.

I dunno about all this Physics stuff, but I do know when I look at a picture like this: [www.rodbuilding.org]
To me that looks like a blank which is NOT FRAGILE at all.

Tom,
As you know the power contributed by the fibers drops off a the 4th power from the surface fibers to the interior fibers. So reducing the diameter of a blank and increasing the wall thickness to get the hoop strength up has serious limits. When this approach is taken it quickly gets to the point that the weight is increasing faster then the hoop strength is increasing.
I do not know because it is difficult to determine from Andy's posts but I suspect from what he has said that the CTS blanks are using fiber wound graphite for scrim rather than the scrim being in the prepreg like some of the golf club manufacturers are doing the primary advantage being mainly in a reduced amount of resin. Any reduction in resin content, which is heavy, has a very low modulus and strain energy, will naturally result in a lighter blank with almost no reduction in power or hoop strength.