Cliff, on the following thread, you stated
"Let the glue soak right into the Thread and bind to the rod blank." Do you allow the glue/epoxy to dry and then install the tip top with epoxy/ ferrule cement or do you install the tip while the glue is still wet.

Thanks
Tony

Re: Tip Top size
Posted by: Cliff Hall (---.dialup.ufl.edu)
Date: March 25, 2006 04:12PM

(1): You can re-order or exchange for a new tip-top.
(2): You can use some Regular Nylon Thread as a shim.
(3): You can consider if Trimming back the rod tip to the correct diameter (OD) to match the tube's ID is an option.

(2): To wrap a Thread Shim: First determine the Thread Size that is closest to what you want to use to take up most, but not all, of the space in the gap.

If your measurements are correct for the rod OD (4.0 - 64ths) and the tube ID (5.0 - 64ths), you are off from the correct tube size by 1.0 - 64ths inch.

1.0 - 64ths inch error in the tube size gives you an error of ONE-HALF that amount on each side of the rod tip's OD.

So the Thread diameter should be less than ONE-HALF of 1.0 - 64ths inch.
That equals a Thread diameter of 0.50 - 64ths OR LESS.

Thread diameters are expressed not in 64ths inch,
but in decimal expression of MILLIMETERS.
So that conversion is [ (0.50 - 64ths) / 64] x (25.400 MM / inch) = 0.198 MM

So the Thread you should use must have a Thread OD less than 0.198 MM

FOR GUDEBROD REGULAR NYLON THREAD:
SIZE A = 0.175 MM = 6 STRANDS per MM
SIZE D = 0.260 MM = 4 STRANDS per MM
SIZE E = 0.330 MM = 3 STRANDS per MM

USE ONE-LAYER of GUDEBROD REGULAR NYLON THREAD - SIZE A as an UNDER-WRAP SHIM for your TIP-TOP TUBE.
TEST FIT the tip-tube over the thread-wrap BEFORE you glue it up.
If this is too tight a fit using Size A Thread, and you do not have some Size 00 (2/0) Silk or Regular Thread ( ~ 0.12 MM), then RE-ORDER a new tube size.
ABSOLUTELY DO NOT-NOT-NOT USE Color Preserver (CP).
Let the glue soak right into the Thread and bind to the rod blank.

Do this, and you'll be fine. Meanwhile, you will have learned, IMO, one of the most useful skills in tip-top mounting. It puts you back in control of those surprise occasions when the tube is too much larger than the rod tip, and when fit is not too critical. ... Build a stock of commonly used tip-top styles in various sizes to reduce the need to have to resort to this. And do a nice little thread wrap IN FRONT of the tube's mouth to reduce the step-down from the TUBE-OD to the ROD-OD.

(3): Also, ALTERNATELY, you can consider if cutting back the rod tip, up to ~ one inch, will put the new blank OD in the right size for a 5.0-64ths tube ID. Removing a length greater than that may cause too much of a change in the rod's action for some tastes, so think about that before you amputate. And DEFINITELY USE reliable calipers to confirm the rod blank OD before any such surgery.

In this case, Plan-2 (shimming with Size A or 2/0 thread) is the most convenient.

Plan-1 (re-ordering a new tube size) is the safest, but least convenient.

And Plan-3 may be too risky for such a light power rod in the first place. You may have to cut back the rod tip too much, and that could affect the taper-action too much. Anything more than 1.0 inch might raise the lower-end of your line rating by as much as 1 / 16th of an ounce, depending on the length of the rod in question. If you are talking about a 5 foot extra-fast UL rod, 1.0 inch may be way too much. If it's a 10' salmon noodle, you will never notice.

IMO, ... -Cliff Hall Gainesville, FL-USA*****

P.S. -
Salmon / Steelhead Blanks (IST/ISA/SH/HS/DR)
[www.fishsticks4u.com]

RS-RX7 GRAPHITE – HOT-SHOT SALMOM / STEELHEAD
HS9000 … Matte Clear … 7'6" … 1-pc …
8-17lb. … 1/4-1/2oz. … 0.450” … 4.5 / 64ths …
Xtr-Fast … Lite … 2.11oz. … $55.00 – Add

Okay, now that I look up the rod, cutting back the rod tip is not such a hot idea on this Hot-Shot rod, because it is an XTRA-FAST taper on a reasonably short rod. It’s your call, … I don’t have the rod in front of me, … –Cliff Hall




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2006 10:03PM by Moderator.

I can't speak for Cliff but what I would do is mount the tip top
with either adhesive method directly to the bare thread shim.
I prefer 5min epoxy myself but some builder like the hot glue
type tip top cement. The decision is yours.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Tony, do as Raymond said. A little 5 min. epoxy on a thread shim is all you need. You're not trying to land a rocket on the moon. And to answer your question, no you don't let the epoxy dry. Put a little glue on the thread and a little in the tip and twist it on, make sure it's straight and let it sit for a few minutes till it's dry.

Tony Politi wrote: “Cliff, on the following thread, you stated: "Let the glue soak right into the Thread and bind to the rod blank." ... Do you allow the glue / epoxy to dry and then install the tip top with epoxy / ferrule cement, or do you install the tip while the glue is still wet.” –Tony Politi

To Tony Politi – If you use a liquid (“low-viscosity”) adhesive epoxy, apply it to the thread shim on the rod tip. Let the epoxy soak in for a few moments, while you are applying with a toothpick a thin wetting of epoxy to the interior wall of the tube of the tip-top. Then install the tube tip-top as soon as you are ready. Align it and stow the rod where it can safely cure.

The step of saturating the thread shim with the liquid epoxy adhesive while you are swabbing some epoxy into the tube should take just a few seconds (~ 10 or 30 seconds at most). Once the thread shim and the tube interior walls are wet with epoxy, installing the tube should also be completed in just a few seconds.

There is no reason to let these two steps be separated by the curing of the epoxy after you apply it onto the thread shim. . You want a continuous binding from the rod blank thru the thread, then a thin layer of the epoxy that wets the tube interior wall, filling that little cylindrical void and binding all the parts together.

If you use a hot-melt glue or stick-type ferrule cement for your tip-top adhesive, this adhesive is also applied to the Thread Shim before installing the tip-top tube. But these melt-glues are so viscous (thick), they are not really going to wet & penetrate the thread, to bind it to the rod blank directly

In this instance (using a melt-glue), the Thread Shim needs to wrapped onto the rod blank with sufficient tension that the thread will not shift. Scuffing the very end of the rod tip under the wrap PRIOR TO WRAPPING ON THE THREAD SHIM is advised. It will not take a huge tension to accomplish this. You can use your fingernails to try to move the thread and see if the tension is sufficient. Small gaps in the wrapping are okay and preferred, to let more of the glue reach the rod blank directly.

You don't have to snap the rod tip off with guitar-string tight tension to make the thread shim hold fast to the rod blank. Just make it tight enough to stay put. You can do this winding free-hand, since the end of the rod tip is so flexible, and now you can easily wind around the rod tip without the interference of more rod blank laying ahead of your winding arm. Wrapping it free-hand may be easier for you than trying to do this in your wrapper jig or thru your tension device. Whatever works for you. Just check it for hold-fastness with your fingernails before you start melting your glue and applying it to the Thread Shim.

I'd hate to hear that somebody had so little tension on the thread, that after the hot-melt glue re-solidified, they tested the tube’s glue joint by gently twisting or pulling on it, and it came off. They look inside and find a perfectly formed coil of shim thread lining the inside of the tube wall. And they look at the rod blank, and see no sign of glue there. That's because the high-viscosity melt-glue does not really reach the rod blank to hold the thread shim in place. In the case of using the melt-glue, it is the THREAD TENSION & ITS FRICTION that holds the Thread Shim to the Rod Blank. You can't really expect the melt-glue to do this - it has a hard time reaching the rod blank.

And the GEOMETRY of the TAPERED Rod Blank complicates this even further. Since the rod blank diameter decreases in the direction of pull, a pulling force on the coil of shim thread may more easily loosen the thread shim, if not let it pop off completely. .

THEREFORE – In the case of using a Thread Shim with a Melt-Glue, the Thread Shim should be done with an OPEN SPIRAL WINDING, rather than a PACKED THREAD style. This allows the Melt-Glue to reach the Rod Blank, forming a continuous integral section of glue from Rod Blank to Tube Wall. Now you don’t have to worry about Thread TENSION being too low. The Melt-GLUE will hold the Shim Thread & Tube to the Rod Blank – not the tension in the Thread Shim, as when the Packed Shim prevents the thick melt-glue from reaching the rod blank. With a wide-pitch Open Spiral Wrap, now the Thread Shim only has to fill the void in the excessive space of an over-sized tube, and not involve much of a binding to the rod blank function (as in the Packed Wrap Shim).

Do a dry-fit of the parts before glueing.

Now I hope you can see why I recommend the following:

When using a LIQUID EPOXY ADHESIVE to glue an OVER-SIZED Tip-Top Tube with a THREAD SHIM: Use a PACKED-WRAPPED Thread Shim. This Packed Shim will absorb the epoxy, and act like a sponge, keeping the epoxy from running out of the joint, since a low-viscosity epoxy generally does not fill a void very well. Small gaps in the wrap are OK.

When using a MELT-TYPE ADHESIVE to glue an OVER-SIZED Tip-Top Tube with a THREAD SHIM: Use an OPEN-WRAPPED SPIRAL Thread Shim. This Open Shim will allow the glue to adhere directly to the rod blank. The melt-glue will not run out of the joint, since its high-viscosity prevents it from running out of the joint, and it fills the void very well.

Here, it is the VISCOSITY of the ADHESIVE and its ABILITY to WET & PENETRATE the Shim Thread so that the glue can adhere DIRECTLY to the Rod Blank that should dictate the openness or packed-ness of the Shim Wrap.

Whether you use a low-viscosity or high-viscosity glue, I can think of no reason or advantage to letting the glue cure on the Thread Shim before installing the Tip-Top Tube. In fact, all I can think of is aggravation, trying to get the fit right after the mess hardens on the Shim. The tube may no longer even fit over the Shim + Glue, and then you have new complications to correct the fit. Don't go there !

I hate to be so long-winded and tedious in this description, but that is the rationale behind the short prescription to remedy this question:

Patient Name: Miss Lucy Tubetop E-ddress: PlusSizes@RBO.net
Rx - Sig: LOW-VISCOSITY GLUE - PACKED SHIM (small gaps)
Rx - Sig: HIGH-VISCOSITY GLUE - OPEN SPIRAL SHIM (wide pitch)
Indication: For Rod Tip Thread Shims, when installing
an Over-Sized Tip-Top Tube on an under-sized rod tip.
In either case, use tight-packed windings of at least 5 turns
on each end to START and STOP the Shim Wrap
"Dr. Rod Smith, RB-C (Certified Rod Builder)"

… B)- … -Cliff Hall, FL-USA. ... B)- …



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2006 07:40AM by Cliff Hall.

I haven't done well using hot melt glue over a thread bushing. Made more of a mess than anything else. With thread I just stick to 5 min. epoxy.

Thanks guys, I will epoxy over the thread shim. Cliff, I have to commend you for some of the most detailed replies that I have come across yet.

Tony

Tony Politi wrote: "Thanks guys, ... . Cliff, I have to commend you for some of the most detailed replies that I have come across yet."

Tony, et al - You all are welcome. I know many of my Replies seem over-wrought. But for those who need that level of detail, I know they have been a blessing. Scores of e-mails have told me that. ... B)- .... Enjoy them for a little while longer while I still can. These Essays, Infomercials and Mini-Tomes in the sub-subsection of the RBO Archives informally known as the Cliff Notes or Cliffipedia are about to come to an end. (I know, for some, when I’m gone, it’ll be a great relief… I’ve gotten a couple of those e-mails as well.}

After 24 months of personal rod-building re-programming, and at least 18 months of working to answer questions as I became increasingly able to handle them, it is time to graduate from forum and restore some balance to my activities.

I'll be starting my Rod-Builders Anonymous Classes very soon. You know, the ones that start off with, "Hi, my name is Cliff. I am a Rod-oholic." ... Then one day I’ll start answering questions like, "What would you like to do with all that time you used to spend on the Internet, and all that money you spent on your Internet Connection..?" [“Build more rods!”] … Well, one day I’ll get enough of that Liberation theology & Replacement theology into my mind and heart, to realize the truth that sets us free. I was just “a prisoner here of my own device.” I'll walk out the front door of the Hotel Rodifornia and be a better builder for it.

Meanwhile, a ship’s hold of thanks to TK and the Forum and the Newbies and the Sponsors. Without all of you, this would hardly be possible. It’s time for me to pass on the torch, because my arms are tired and my back is killing me (from hunching over the dang keyboard).

Not just giving the 15 second answer to a question, but giving 15 reasons why it should be done this way, and not that way, helped me enormously to realize WHY things work and not simply THAT they work. The same can be true for you, as you put the time, and your mind and heart, into it.

Best Wishes to those of you for whom that is not just a habit, but a way of life, and an honor. It has been for me. Gentlemen, Thank you for your audience. … It’s been a privilege and a pleasure. … Ciao, Pisano.

Most Sincerely, Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-USA <[email protected]>

P.S. – I hope to keep in touch with many of you off the Board via e-mail. You know who you are, we’ve done it before. And if I win the Florida Lottery BIG-TIME, in my travels, I hope to be swinging by your way. B)- .
–Via con Dios–. Bendicion. Adieu. –CMH.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2006 10:06PM by Moderator.