Mr. Hall;
You sated in a resent post that you apply more thread tension then most.

Questions:
1- Do you have a standard that you use to measure that tension?
2- Have you ever had a blank failure because of the excessive thread tension?
3- Do you build light action type rods or are we talking mostly about heavier salt water types?

Steve, I can't speak for Cliff, but

My method is crude at best. I just do it by feel and try to get the thread tight enough that the guide WILL move, but it's slightly hard to move once wrapped, I'm SURE not all of them have the same exact tension either-surely not. As long as the guide is not loose or so tight that the guide won't move I think you're "ok"?

DR

Thank's DR ;
I pretty well know how to do it ,and how I do it.
I was was wondering how Mr Hall did it based on a comment he posted.

It seems most Rod-Builders use up to ~14 oz of Thread Tension. I use ~20 oz. Thread Tension, over the Guide Feet, mostly on E-Size Gudebrod Nylon. I run the Thread thru the pages of a heavy book, and pile more weight on top to control the Tension. Rod projects are usually salt-water rods, 12# and up. No rod failures. The easiest way to measure this Thread Tension is to set-up the Tension Device as you would for an actual wrapping job. Then just hook the Thread into a sack into which you can add weight until the Thread starts to slip. That’s your Thread Tension. These guides do NOT move. Alignment is maintained AS YOU GO. Manual wrapper jig. A stringed weight or two looped over the rod blank keeps the rod from rolling or pulling up out of the V-blocks. -Cliff Hall+++.

If everybody but me is happy with 6-8 ozs of Thread Tension, or whatever, please do not let me re-invent your wheel. "As tight as I can get it" is about where I like it. Frankly, I thought mine would be higher than 18-20 oz., but it seems there is a practical limit to the amount of friction that can be generated by the pages of a book compressing smooth Nylon Thread, even with ~15 pounds of extra weight on top of the book. The Nylon definitely stretches and the Thread plucks like a guitar string. Yes, occasionally the tie-off nearly pops when pulling under. But the guides are not going anywhere. B)-

Excerpt from over 3 pages of detailed discussion of the Physics & Static Forces involved in how a Thread Wrap holds a Line Guide in place, and the Force Vectors on a Line Guide from Fishing and Handling Abuse; related to the Forhan Locking Wrap.
Re: forgot to use the Forhan wrap ... [Kevin Blevins]
Cliff Hall ... 02-11-06 11:23 [www.rodbuilding.org]
Q: Can I expect to knock loose the eyes on this rod because of no Forhan wrap?
A: –NO–. If you ever tear out your guide foot from the pressure of fighting a fish, or even if the guide simply slips, rocks or lifts, then your thread tension was too low to begin with. Or the guide was too polished. Or the guide was not flat or curved. Or some threads had weakened or snapped, and you had not noticed it yet. Or something else was wrong with the guide placement; or the reel drag, Or someone was heavily over-lining or had been abusively handling the rod. … Cliff Hall+++ ETC


Excerpt from 2 pages of detailed discussion of the Physics & Static Forces involved in how a Thread Wrap holds a Line Guide in place, and the Force Vectors on a Line Guide, and the difference between TENSION and TENSILE STRENGTH.
Re: how tight should wraps be …[Bruce A. Tomaselli]
Cliff Hall Nov. 16, 2005 11:31 [www.rodbuilding.org]
Q: “How tight should guide wraps be?”
A: Your guide wraps should be at least tight enough to resist the forces to which your guide will be subjected. If you want to be able to move the guide around while wrapping & aligning on the rack, then that same force will move the guide later as well. The thread finish is not an adhesive, and the thread finish does not magically secure the guide. (It does protect the thread from abrasion and moisture.) -Cliff Hall+++, ETC, …

“Keep in mind that with whatever force that you are able to move that guide around on the rod blank while wrapping on the rod rack, that it will not take that much more force than that later to move your guide around after the thread finish has cured, and the rod is on the water. The thread finish is said to only add ~ 10% to the strength of the unfinished thread wrap. The thread finish is really not an adhesive, and it is not magic. It is the TENSION in the thread that holds the guide in place from shifting, more than the tensile strength of the thread.” Cliff Hall+++, ETC.


Excerpt from 4+ pages of detailed discussion of the Physics & Static Forces involved in how a Thread Wrap holds a Line Guide in place, and the Force Vectors on a Line Guide, and the difference between TENSION and TENSILE STRENGTH; and the Calculation of the Thread Wrap Strength in my “Table”.
Re: To double wrap or not … [Kenneth L. Saums]
CLIFF HALL 11-11-05 00:53
[www.rodbuilding.org]
I realize this may seem like a confusing distinction between two different restrictive forces: a FRICTIONAL force that prevents the guide from SLIDING around on the rod blank; verses a TETHERING force that prevents the guide from RIPPING away from the rod blank. -Cliff Hall+++, ETC.


TITLE: "Gudebrod Thread Table: Strength & Weight of Guide Wraps for Size 2/0 - E" . ... For general reference, a Table of Calculated Strengths and Weights of UNFINISHED Gudebrod Thread Wraps for Sizes 2/0-E, for Silk, Regular Nylon, NCP and HT Metallics, assuming a thread wrap bandwidth of 1 cm, around a rod blank of circumference of 1 cm (OD = 1/Pi = 3.18 mm), is available at: [www.rodbuilding.org]
Calculated values, not direct "in-situ" measurements. -Cliff Hall+++, FL-USA


guide wraps? kim nordblad Feb. 11, 2006 15:22
[www.rodbuilding.org]
I read a Reply by Cliff Hall on a “Locking Wrap”. He uses a lot of thread tension? … I’ve always been told to use so much tension that I could align the guides … ETC, …

I took a tip from Fly Tying. Break the thread by hand and see how much tension you can put on it.
Then keep iy under that.


Dan Hogan
The only way to have a friend, is to be one.

Too much tension can be damaging to the blank. Mostly the lighter, thinner walled graphite models. Remember that thread tension is cumlative - each wind adds more.

The rule of thumb is to test your guides after you've wrapped them. If you can move them side to side very easily, you're too loose. If you can't move them side to side except with tremendous effort, you're too tight. If you can shift them slightly with modest sideways pressure, you're about right.

After a few rods you'll get a feel for what constitutes the right amount of tension.


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