I got into a big hurry to get this rod wrapped this evening and on the next to last wrap I thought “man this going together fast “. Then I realized what I’d done, or not done. My question now is can I expect to knock loose some eyes on this rod because of no Forhan wrap. Is there anything extra that I can do to ensure the stability of the guides? I haven't epoxied them yet because I might rewrap them.
Thanks in advance
Ken Blevins
So many questions, so little time

As long as your not hard on your equipment(banging the guides etc on things) I wouldnt loose any sleep over it. Before the Forhan wrap came about most all guides were wrapped exactly the way you wrapped yours.
The way I see it is as long as you got the tunnel filled with finish and all wraps covered then you should have no issues with having the guides pull out.

Ken, why not just put on a blocking wrap of about 5 or so threads and get the tunnels filled. If they come loose in service, you can just re-wrap then. Like Russell said, if you're not rough on equiptment, there's probably no need to re-wrap yet, but I'm no expert on such matters! Wait & see what others have to say.

Stan

What Stan says makes good sense to me. Very easy to just add a short wrap in front to provide a bit more durability and balanced look to all the other wraps.

Q: Can I expect to knock loose the eyes on this rod because of no Forhan wrap?
A: –NO–. If you ever tear out your guide foot from the pressure of fighting a fish, or even if the guide simply slips, rocks or lifts, then your thread tension was too low to begin with. Or the guide was too polished. Or the guide was not flat or curved. Or some threads had weakened or snapped, and you had not noticed it yet. Or something else was wrong with the guide placement; or the reel drag, Or someone was heavily over-lining or abusively handling the rod. …

Even if a line knot or swivel jams in the guide ring (eye), the fishing line test should break before the guide flattens or rips out. Or the guide frame was way too flimsy for that rod’s application to begin with. A jammed knot or swivel being pulled by a heavy speed demon of a fish, or a short-leash & violent hook-set with no-stretch fishing line, is about the only way that enough force can be generated to seriously uproot or destroy a line guide. …

In my estimation, it has NOTHING to do with the absence or presence of a special locking wrap. By the time the Forhan Locking Wrap exerts its restraint, there is already so much force developed that serious damage to the rod or guide is almost certain. Thread failure is imminent, and the Forhan wrap just delays the inevitable – maybe long enough to pop the fishing line. You may save the guide in the wrap for the day, but lose the fish because the line popped. Tough call, … –Cliff Hall+++

Q: Is there anything extra that I can do to ensure the stability of the guides?
A: Fill the tunnels. That will help “block” the guide foot, and reduce slip or rock.

Q: I haven't epoxied them yet, because I might rewrap them.
A: Don’t agonize over no Forhan wrap. Epoxy, cure & … go fishing.

IMO, -Cliff Hall+++, Gainesville, FL-USA*****

For more explanation on this advice and trouble-shooting, read on:

How heavy was the thread TENSION to begin with? … Thread size and its TENSILE STRENGTH are almost irrelevant in this particular analysis. The thread TENSION generates the FRICTION between (the top of the guide foot and the wrap), and between (the underside of the guide and the rod blank –or the underwrap thread–) that holds the guide in place. … That’s PHYSICS, not rabbits’ feet.

Can you move the guides on the rod now, more than you'd like to be able to move them on the finished rod later? … If yes, then you need to re-wrap with a higher thread tension anyway, regardless of whether or not you use a Locking Wrap.

What kind of single-foot guides are they anyway? … Some guide styles may have that barb-like protuberance on the side, which acts to block a guide pull-out. (FUJI Single-Foot HARDLOYS: the S-F 2-Leg B/G/C-LVLG Vee-frames; or the new S-F 3-Leg BLBLG Boat-Casting Frames.)

What's your type of fishing, expected line test and expected drag setting? …

I guess what I'm getting at that this: If the expected duty on the rod is not severe, you will probably be quite fine without a Forhan Locking Wrap, ... assuming your thread tension was good and your wraps are tight in the first place. ...

TEST YOUR WRAPS by HAND, with your fingers (thumb & index). Check for twisting of the ring face; rocking side to side; slipping up or down the rod blank; or lifting off the rod blank at the heel; or the toe sticking out thru the winding’s “sock.”

TEST YOUR WRAPS by LOADING the ROD. String fishing line thru the guides. Check and see if loading the rod heavily makes the guides seem to rock, slip or lift off the rod blank. ... You may want to do this outside, in case the line pops, so you don’t damage the rod tip on the ceiling or furniture

If the wraps, as they are now, hold the guides down very well when tested like this, you are certainly good to go, Ken. These two checks are a reasonable simulation of fishing & rod-handling conditions. … If you think that some guides are too lose, then you have your answer, ... re-wrap.

IMO, with all due respect to Richard Forhan and to those who swear by the Forhan Locking Wrap, I'm sure it does add to the stability of the guide. But by how much and when? … is uncertain.

By what amount does a Forhan Wrap increase overall wrap strength? … When you do the math on this for ALL A-sized Gudebrod Thread (Regular Nylon, NCP and HT-Metallics), there are about 6 thread diameters per millimeter. And the foot length of a typical single-foot guide is about 10 millimeters (1 cm). Let’s say there are 50 wraps holding down the guide foot. And there are several Locking Wraps in the Forhan Lock. That means that there are 10 if not 20 times as many ordinary wraps as locking wraps. So the MOST, in my estimation, that the Forhan Wrap could add to the overall strength of the wrap is ~10%. Maybe 20% if your thread tension is low to begin with, as it may be with HT-Metallics.

The Forhan wraps increase the friction between the THREAD and the GUIDE FRAME, by wrapping around the guide’s heel. It has no special or additional power to “glue” the guide to the rod blank per se. If the stretch in the nylon thread itself (which has to do with the tension and the tensile strength) allows the guide to slip or lift, THEN the no-slip tethering grip that the Forhan LOCKING wraps have on the guide heel comes into play. Not really before then. Before then, the tension in the Forhan wrap just acts pretty much like the other 50 ordinary winds on the guide foot. It just presses the guide foot down into the rod blank and holds it in place by friction and the same tethering force common to all these winds over the guide foot.

At what time during the stress on a line guide does the special restraining / tethering force of the Forhan Wrap exert its benefit? … Well, at precisely what time, and for how long during the application of a strong force on the guide frame and the thread, that Forhan effect is operating is debatable. And all this dynamic force generation & analysis can happen in just fractions of a second, which confounds the discussion even further, in my estimation. Does the guide slip or lift first, then is tethered by the Forhan winds? –etc– Simultaneous thread stretching and guide slipping and heel lifting are operating concurrently. Isolating the additional strength from the Forhans is like trying to dissect a frog that is still moving.

And speaking of moving, I am unsure of the additional amount of stress or abrasion on the thread itself, that comes from the guide frame, from the thread being wound around the tight angles and right-angle corners of the guide frame itself in the heel, associated with the Forhan Locking Wraps. This is more of a repetitive rubbing or stretching issue, from long-term casting & rod-loading that is fatigue-failure related, rather than pulse-stress failure related. This is another hard to evaluate condition.

In my estimation by my micro-analysis, the sheer thread TENSION is the MAJOR force restraining the line guide from ripping-out, by creating the FRICTION that holds the guide foot in place. ... SEVERE deformation of the guide frame will occur in most cases before a wrap will let the guide slip or slip out. Too low a thread tension is more the culprit in such cases than the absence of a Forhan Locking Wrap.

Guide feet should be FLAT (heel to toe), “PIPED” (curved underneath like the inside of a pipe, to approximate the curvature of the rod blank), well-tapered, and free of burrs, too sharp a point, or too sharp an edge. Guides should be buffed or smoothed, but not polished as slick as the guide ring itself. IMO, a slightly brushed texture to the top of the guide feet gives the wrapping thread plenty of tooth to grip the guide and prevent slippage.

I like a thread tension over the flat part of the guide foot that can tune a guitar string. That guide does not move. Guide Alignment is perfected during the wrapping process; not by re-adjustment later. Check / confirm? – Yes. Re-align? – No.

MILLIONS of single-foot guides have been wrapped without a Forhan Locking Wrap. … If your guide preparation, wrapping technique and thread tension are good to begin with, then that is all you’ll ever need. … Forhan Locking Wraps, or any variation on that theme, are optional, in my analysis. … And guide foot barbs are capable of adding at least as much resistance to slip than any locking wrap, … by my analysis, … And others will have their own analysis, …

– C'est la Vie! … -Cliff Hall+++, Gainesville, FL-USA*****

If you make the Forhan wraps in such a way that the thread comes under tension when you try to pull it out, you might significantly increase the pullout force over that of the sliding friction. It would be pretty easy to test and see.

mark

I agree with Cliff's observation that "By the time the Forhan Locking Wrap exerts its restraint, there is already so much force developed that serious damage to the rod or guide is almost certain"......

With no Forhan wrap and a properly wrapped guide you should not worry about the guide shifting around.

Lou

Ken, I'm a little late with a comment (been on a long trip) - but thought I should comment before misconceptions become accepted. Mr. Blanchard's comments are all you needed to know.With all due respect, Mr. Hall's long analysis has nothing to do with the reasons for using my wrap or not. I developed the wrap for anglers that use bass boats - especially in competition. Rod lockers and rough treatment are what the locking wrap is used for - not fighting fish. However, if you like to make rods better than they need to be - even though not subjected to the possibility of snaging the guide - once again the locking wrap applies.