Or unless the blank is up above the casting reel??

This thread got me thinking(set off the smoke alarm).I had a rod on the lathe with no guide installed yet so I put the reel on(Penn Int965) and tied a 2oz. sinker to the line.With the line at center spool and the rod hanging vertically I was able to transition the line to the bottom without touching the blank.This would make the line perfectly straight.however the point at which the line gets to the bottom of the rod was too far towards the tip for any benefit to be realized.The rod is a 7ft.salt water plugging rod.The reason it was still sitting and not wrapped is I`m waiting to get the latest issue of RM to see if the new info will make any difference in the way I wrap this one.Another reason I was disappointed to not make the show was it pushed this project further down the road(darn snow).I have several spiraled boat rods but this will be the first casting one.

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

I think Jay is right as there definately is a transition from top to bottom and any means of aiding that transition would be a transition tool be it the blank surface or a guide. Perhaps a new tool made of ceramic that could be adhered to the blank to prevent chafing is in order to repace the single low profile guide. Sort of a "rub rail".

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

09:15AM - Well, I have been reading this “Spiral Wrap, which method is better?” with baited-breath. And unless my imagination has gone on vacation, it sounds like a matter of semantics to me. IMO, the only comments that seem grounded in reality are Emory Harris' usual pains-taking analysis, Bill Boettcher's man-on-the-rod practical view, and Charlie Smoote's artful contemplation. We'll all see for ourselves how unprecedented this method is after our income taxes are due and the RMM 8(2) issue has arrived.

I’m sure this is will be another excellent Article in RMM. And that Mr. William Colby (with Mr. Tom Kirkman) has made a significant and legitimate advancement in circumventing an inherent problem in building a conventional rod. And that he has taken a creative approach toward and made a real improvement to the standard and existing solution (the Spiral Wrap). But as far as the implication that this is such a unique and unprecedented design that it has to be shrouded in secrecy, it seems, … well, just a little “fishy” to me. I understand and respect the value of intellectual property. But unless this new method is going to be patented or trademarked, (in which case it should not be divulged until secured), then the bow-spirit of the free flow of ideas that is the usual hallmark of the Forum here at RBO seems to have run aground. ... IMO. -Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-

Thank you Cliff ---- I bet Tom and the others are laughing there A--'s off??!!

I just think people think way too much. It's a rod, nitpicking at minute details over and over and over and over again doesn't do any good. And over and over and over.

P.S. - 11:30AM - And I'm with Jay Lancaster here, as well. Any guide or guides that are involved with moving the line from the conventional reel on top of the rod (or the 0-zero degree position) down to the 180 degree position under the rod would be considered a "transition guide". That's an axiomatic definition that cannot be dissolved for the sake of accomodating an alternate view. Over 20 years of usage & consensus have established that as the definition of a transition guide, and the content of this discussion does not justify a re-interpretation or shifting of that consensus of our standard. IMO, -Cliff Hall-.

We haven't shrouded anything in secrecy. Some things are hard to explain in message board posts and I don't have time to stay here all day trying to describe how this works. Photos show the method more clearly. I had one at the show and will have photos in the next issue of the Magazine. It's very simple and is by far the easiest (and maybe the best) way to get the line under the rod.

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...and over...

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We haven't shrouded anything in secrecy. Some
> things are hard to explain in message board posts
> and I don't have time to stay here all day trying
> to describe how this works. Photos show the method
> more clearly. I had one at the show and will have
> photos in the next issue of the Magazine. It's
> very simple and is by far the easiest (and maybe
> the best) way to get the line under the rod.
>
> ..................


Well send out the next issue early before I start another rod. I need that new method pretty quick. :D

just kidding! :)

Transition guides don't really have any standard definition as far as I know, but I tend to think they would be the guides that "transition" the line from the top of the blank to the bottom. But the line will naturally go the bottom of the blank, if you allow it to, without any such guides. That's the natural path for it.

The system is so easy that I have begun to wonder why so many systems were developed to take the line around the rod in a spiral, or led out towards the tip in some fashion. But I'm guilt of doing it that way for many, many years. We'll get the info out in the next issue (it may not be new to some - you have to be careful claiming anything as being truly new as somebody somewhere has likely already done it) and guys can try it for themselves and see if it passes muster.




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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2005 05:00PM by Tom Kirkman.

Come on April/May!

Regards......Doug@
TCRds

Emory said that I was overcombative. Just kidding! I think one major idea has been missed here! Though I haven't yet seen Mr. Kirkman's new spiral method, when talking about the other previously used systems of spiral wraps, we have to remember that the rod blank will tell us the important info we need to know where the tranisiotn guides go and such and not some paper-graphed system with no relationship to the blank in our wrapping apparatus! I've had some rods that were supposedly identical from the same company that I had slightoly change the spiral to get the most out of each rod. I think most of us have been there! So whether or not the new method is indeed a miraculous discovery doesn't change the fact that it is another tool that all the frontline builders should learn and become familiar with so that should we meet a blank necessitating the technique, we'll be able to immediately deploy it. I have yet to see any "perfect" guide systen to applies equally to all rods making them all produce to the maximum capability inherent in the blank. I've seen other custom rod crafters adjust certain systems to the point that the rod's capabilities were brought out so well it was a work of art! Just my two cents here and nothing more.

Thank you Mr. Kirkman for entertaining our curiosities and giving us this much insight into this new variation-on-a-theme, which I'll refer to as the Colby-Kirkman method for Spiral Wrapping. No doubt it will take it's rightful place among the most popular options for a spiral wrap design, by new & old builders alike. But from the impression I had prior to today's revelations, claiming no transition guides and a straight-line path, something truly mystical seemed to be looming on the horizon. And, well, ... even with all due respect, The Second Coming this is not. ... IMO, -Cliff Hall-

I never said it was - you're making far too much out of it. I only said it was very, very simple and easy to do and that it worked very well. Anything pertaining to "mystical" or "second comings" did not emanate from me and I don't think they came from Bill either.

...........

So if you don't have guides on anything other than the 0 and 180 degree position you would agree that there are no transition guides? Excellent, we agree! This is what we've been saying.

I don’t see anything in either Tom’s or my posts that said this was mystical or the second coming or even the best thing since sliced bread. We didn’t even say it was new and Tom even went out of his way to say that others may already be using such a system.

It’s disturbing to me that so many of you have tried to put words in our mouths but haven’t even bothered to fully read either of our posts. No one has claimed any magic. Just a method that is simple and straightforward that it would seem that most have overlooked it. I have been working with it and building and testing rods with it for the past year and for me it is the very best spiral wrap method I have yet used. Whether you will like it or not remains to be seen and is a decision you'll have to make on your own. I really don't see what all the fuss is about.

How about a picture on the photo page, for the people unable to see it at the show.

No disrespect to Tom or WC, there ain't much to see. It's entirely as simple (and I repeat SIMPLE) as it was explained here, there shouldn't be much of a need to see it - tape some guides on a rod, add a shorty "trans" guide - and you'll be able to see it yourself first hand.

William,
Let me try to tell you, from my point of view, what "all the fuss has been about" as you put it. First let me say that I do not think that I began with any particular bias for or against spiral wrapped rods. I thought that there was certainly a place for them. However, I do feel that they have been over sold. There have been claims made about spiral wrapped rods that were just plain not consistant with the facts. There have also been criticisms of conventionally wraps rods, in the discussions that have gone on about spiral wrapped rods, that again, in my judgement, were not consistant with the facts. Because of this I think that some people have become very sensitive about any claims made about spiral wrapped rods. I know that I now look first with suspicion at any claims that are made about spiral wrapped rods. I sincerely hope that you and Tom have an imporved approach but I am suspicious.

I still have yet to see any practical disadvantages of spiral wrapped rods. They cast just as far and are inherently stable. Please someone list these disadvantages. We've been through this before and no one seems to be able to list any actual on the water practical disadvantages.

In Charlotte, I took a device which held, on free turning ball bearings, two identical rods. The only difference between them was that one was wrapped in conventional guides on top fashion and one was spiral wrapped. 14 ounces of weight was suspended from both.

The conventional guides on top rod would not stay upright. People would try to set it upright, but as soon as you let it go it would flip upside down, and with some authority I might add! If you tried to hold it upright, the tip would twist a bit as the line/load fought to take the guides to the bottom. Let the rod go, and it spun upside down in the blink of an eye (and yes, the effective spine was positioned on top, just where many say you must put it in order to prevent rod twist).

Conversely, the spiral wrapped rod could not be upset. People would try to flip it upside down, but as soon as they let it go it spun back upright, and with that same authority.

As more load was placed on the two rods, the same effect became even stronger. Next year I'll repeat the demo but with much heavier rods and far heavier loads. The stability advantage of spiral rods is still greatly undersold, in my opinion.

Custom rod builders who attend shows should take note of this demo device. It's one of those dynamic tools that allows your potential customers, even entices them, to come in and take a look. People just naturally want to see and try the demos. The look on their faces when they realize how rods want to behave while under load is worth a thousand words. Telling somebody is one thing but allowing them to see it for themselves is far more effective.

One guy, not a rod builder, played with the rods for about 10 minutes. I asked him what he thought. His reply was quick, "My rod guides are on the wrong side of the rod." He left looking for a builder to spiral wrap his rods.



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2005 09:04PM by Tom Kirkman.