There is endless discussion regarding guide sizing on spinning and casting rods, and the rationale for same. It seems that larger guide sizes are being phazed out in lieu of smaller sizes in order to control line direction and erratic behavior, for the purpose of (in theory anyway) longer casting distances.

I have seen repeated suggestions for downsizing the guide sizes of fly rod guides, either snake or single foot, to a size that just comfortably incircles the intended fly line (my interpetation). My question is, is there any objective reason to care as much about larger fly guides vs smaller fly guides as related to rod performance? Most of the comments I have seen referable to this topic sound something like "...you don't need anything larger than size ### ", or "...you can get away with ### ". Is there any clear, objective data suggesting that reducing the size of the guides to the minimum sizes that one can get away with without negative consequences (whatever that means) is better than using larger guides? If so, what is that reason or those reasons?

Really good question!!!

I personally do not subscribe to the idea that one should install the guide that "JUST" passes the largest knot in the line system.
The doubled head of a fly line as one threads the guides will be larger than any knot.

The following is a good primer on fly rod guides.
Herb
CTS

[www.ginkandgasoline.com]

I don't know a thing about fly rods, but I do know larger guides, weigh more. And based on my experience with lighter guides versus heavier ones with my bass fishing rod, lighter guides can make a definite difference in the rod's casting characteristics.

I would imagine that since guides are leveraged weight, and fly rods I have seen are normally 8' or longer, that lighter guides would be of even a greater benefit than they would on a shorter rod, where the weight of the guide is less leveraged.

The proper size guides on any rod will be the smallest ones that will easily pass the line and any required connections (this could be a knot, or loop to loop, etc.) Smaller and lighter guides, as long you don't go beyond what easily passes those lines, knots, connections, etc., do result in longer casts for a variety of reasons. One of them is that by reducing weight along the rod blank the rod speed increases. Reaction and recovery times are shortened. You have a more efficient rod.

.........

David. I did A LOT of fishing with conventional casting reels.
You have your thumb and sophisticated systems to eliminate or diminish overrun.
Not so with a fly rod.
Read the Gink and Gasoline article again.

Ahhhhhhh
But Tom - you are a fan of ceramic runners on a fly rod.
I can't think of anything heavier - size for size- as ceramics.

We really haven't fully answered Ernie's
concern.
We all know tgat TOO large a running guide train is not approved to extra weight.
A number 20 stripper is not going to be a negative weight factor vs a #16 because of where it's placed.
Further - 3 ceramics down low will also have little or no effect vs wire.

Personally I think that there is a large window for runner guides.
I.e. I can't see any difference between a 9' #10 fly rod with a #20 stripper and #4 runners - and - same blank with #16 Stripper and #3 runners.

I think builders are advised not to go too big or too small.

How big? How small?

You using a thick floating line most of the time??
Fishing for "HOT" fish like Tarpon, albies.
Better have guides that can pass snarles - and not just barrel knots and loop-to-loops.
Herb

I am a fan of ceramics on SOME fly rods, not all. And the right type and size aren't much heavier.

.........

Thanks for the link Herb. The information seemed sound, but the author refrained from suggesting his own personal preference as to whether he would choose to go a little larger vs a little smaller in reference to guide diameters. I think I am in the "touch larger" camp.

It was also interesting to see the author refer to some rods having "...two stripper guides...". I used that term once here in the past, and got tossed into the wood chipper! :-)

As with many things in rod building, it not what someone else likes, it’s what you like. This is what makes a custom rod custom.
Norm

"As with many things in rod building, it not what someone else likes, it’s what you like. This is what makes a custom rod custom."

Yes Norm, that is unquestionably correct. The thing is, there are basically two types of people who monitor this site in my opinion, those looking for information or help, and those who may have that information and are willing to help. In essence, there are students and there are teachers, and although who's who may change from one situation to the next, that's how I see it. People on this board with experience in varying aspects of rod building certainly have different "likes" and "dislikes". Knowing why those likes and dislikes exist in the minds of those people has enormous value. Those likes and dislikes likely were created by previous experiences of those people that were either positive or negative. If those people tell us why they either like or dislike one thing or another, it helps out those with no previous experience.

If someone tells me why they may prefer slightly larger guide diameters over slightly smaller guide diameters, or vice versa, that is information I may be able to use. I wonder how many doctors will tell their patients today that they could either go with "this" treatment or "that" treatment. I also wonder how many of those doctors may be asked by their patients....."Based on your experience doctor, what would YOU do...and why?

Ernie,

The fact that the author thinks it is possible to have two stripping guides on a fly rod should give you cause for concern. What else is he wrong about?

It impossible to have two stripping guides on a fly rod. Simply impossible. In the same manner you can't have two butt guides on a casting or spinning rod. Yes, this sight is frequented by rod builders who are typically more in tune with rods and rod terms than they average fisherman. Mis-used terms are often called-out, but I they're not done in any sort of a hateful manner. My own thinking is that rod builders should be enlightening fishermen when possible, rather than perpetuating myths, bad terminology, etc. In the meantime I'm still trying to figure out what a "heavy action" rod is.

.........

When some one asks what I like or how I do something, I tell them, and most of the time give the reason or reasons why. However, that doesn’t mean that what I like you will like. On this site a lot of rod building information is presented often with multiple options being involved. For this particular fly rod guide sizing thread pertinent information with rationale have been presented by a couple of very experienced and well respected rod builders who both give very good advice. So what is an inexperienced builder to do? They either have to pick an option they think is best, or test each option to convince themselves which is best for them. A teacher can only go so far, the student has to be part of the process. Education is multifaceted and ongoing process.

Norm

Ernie
Off to the wood chipper with you!!! Good thing we'er not in Alice in Wonderland. It would be off with your head.

Two stripper guides:
We used to call the 2nd Stripper guide a "Tamer" because sometime (like the author says) the line does not behave as you would like it.
So, call it a tamer or a stripping guide - no matter.
Lately I have been installing 4 ceramic guides low down - just because I can :-))

Some friends of mine who have been building for many years just use one (1) ceramic guide.

I think the defining elements of a well built fly rod - you can't even see. Like a foam reel seat arbor in stead of masking tape. Or techneiques that ensure that all components in the grip area ar concentric with the blank.

But, I think we all agree that keeping the build as light as possible is paramount.- - most f the time.i.e. I just built a fly rod for a fly fishing guide who needs a 7wt rod to take his fly casting certification test.
The rod I sent him as a sample was a little to stiff to be loaded with an AFFTA #7 line.
So, I built his rod with SnakeBrand Chromed Stainless runners instead of my normal REC Recoil runners.
Hopefully it will work - and I didn't make it too soft.
Herb
CTS

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
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Ernie,

>The fact that the author thinks it is possible to
have two stripping guides on a fly rod should give
you cause for concern. What else is he wrong
about?

Actually Tom, I don't think the author of that article was necessarily wrong about anything other than the misuse of terminology. I do agree that if you're writing an article on guides, you ought to know how to use the accepted terminology related to same. However, what he did do when referencing that second ("tamer" as per Herb) guide, was give a quick explanation of why it might be used. For me, using the wrong terminology was of no real consequence. His explanation of why it might be used was golden.

Norm wrote:
------------------------------

>When some one asks what I like or how I do something, I tell them, and most of the time give the reason or reasons why. However, that doesn’t mean that what I like you will like.

Of course, but I never saw anyone qualify their question by stating "would anyone who answers please do so with an answer that will result in an end point that I will be totally thrilled with"! However, if someone is asking you directly about an issue, I assume that you are not going to provide information that you wouldn't consider the best advise or in your opinion the best way to approach that issue. If I asked you for your favorite chili recipe, it is well understood that I may end up with something that I really like...or not.

On a personal note, I have received information on a number of occasions from both you and Tom, including as pertains to you recommendations for certain blanks for particular applications, and I have never been dissatisfied. Having purchased some blanks that in my opinion weren't even close to their descriptions, I asked you for your advise, and you banged out some call numbers of blanks that were just what the doctor ordered. Yes, it's possible that I might not have liked those also...but I did!