Hello,

I need someone to set me straight and tell me if im being an idiot.

Im currently building a 4 piece, 5ft 6 fibre glass bfs rod but im running into guide placement issues. This is my first casting rod build.

I currently have 9 eyes and taped on the rod handles well. Casts well and performance is good. My issue is under load the line touches the blank. Ive gone back to the drawing board with guide placement to try and stop this but it looks like I would need at least another 3 guides. 12 guides on a blank of this length seems extremely excessive and with whipping/epoxy would add a lot more weight. Im using a size 6 fuji double foot and size 4.5 single foot running guides.

In this situation, is line touching the blank an unavoidable part of casting rods? Should I just build it with the original guide layout and accept the flaws? I really dont want to go down the acid wrap route if at all possible.


Thanks,

Tom

As long as the line isn't going below the blank when under load, you should be fine. Just don't try to lift fish with it. I agree that 12 guides on that rod seems excessive.

Just curious - why are you opposed to the acid wrap? It alleviates the issue you're facing and has really no downside. Not to mention, it's easy to execute (even easier than having all the guides on top in my opinion).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2024 03:53PM by Patrick Coco.

Thanks Patrick, no i certainly wont be lifting any fish with it.

If im being honest its purely for looks. Im trying to have this build be a simple classic looking rod. I might need to do a bit more research into the acid wrap. It might convince me to try it.

Thanks Patrick, no i certainly wont be lifting any fish with it.

If im being honest its purely for looks. Im trying to have this build be a simple classic looking rod. I might need to do a bit more research into the acid wrap. It might convince me to try it.

You've already done most of the work using a spiral wrap, simply turn all the pieces but the one with the first guide from the reel 180 degrees and you are already 90% there. if you taped the guides on good you could even now go out a test cast it.

In proper fish fighting technique, you aren't reeling when the rod is deeply loaded - you're pulling the fish with the rod and then recovering the gained line with the reel, so having the line on the rod in such a static condition isn't really the issue that many think.

The advent of smaller and lower framed guides results in needing more of them to keep the line off the blank so you'll have to compromise a bit. Nine guides is more than reasonable and will provide sufficient stress distribution for the blank. Lift away.

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Thanks all,

Think im going to go the acid/spiral wrap route. Everything ive seen makes it look perfect for what i want to achieve. Seems pretty simple to implement too.

Are you familiar with the simple spiral? It works as well as the more complicated versions and is a piece of cake to set up. You probably only need about 7 guides on that rod. Set it up so you like it and it test casts well without worrying about line crossing the blank, then as Spencer recommends, turn all but the butt guide 180 degrees. Then put a very low guide half way between the first and second guide at 90 degrees. And it's done.

I use a spiral wrap with the following angles (starting with the butt):
0 (on top)
45
90
135
180 (on bottom)

I place the butt guide per usual. Then I rotate 90 degrees and place the 3rd guide, then rotate another 90 and place the 5th Guide. Those 90 degree alignments are easy to do without any sort of angle measurements. Then I go back and eyeball the 2nd and 4th guides right in between the 1st, 3rd and 5th.

This was the easiest and most consistent spiral wrap I found that I could execute without any special calculations or angle measurements.

Hi Michael,

By small guide between the size 8 ( got another guide just incase) and size 6 double foot would a single foot 4.5 work? The same as my running guides. Am i correct in thinking that this is the bumper guide?


Thanks,

Tom

Yes, you are correct, and I believe a single foot 4.5 will work for that. If I'm wrong, someone will let us know. For single foot guides I recommend some sort of locking loop to really tie them down. The Library has one version if you're unfamiliar with it.

Just tried the simple acid wrap and its worked great! Casting performance is on par or even a little better than it was previously with the added bonus that i no longer have to worry about blank rub.

Il definitely be experimenting more with the acid/spiral wrap on other rods.

Tomos Edwards Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just tried the simple acid wrap and its worked
> great! Casting performance is on par or even a
> little better than it was previously with the
> added bonus that i no longer have to worry about
> blank rub.
>
> Il definitely be experimenting more with the
> acid/spiral wrap on other rods.


Just to be certain, how far apart is your butt guide from your first 180 degree guide?

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il check my measurements when i get home and get back to you! Off the top of my head it was around 11 / 12 inches between the butt and first 180

Time for some late evening fly fishing!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2024 02:53PM by Tomos Edwards.

Ok, that's not too bad. And the roughly 70 to 110 degree rub prevention guide goes halfway between those.

However, with 9 guides (plus the rub prevention guide) on such a short rod, I suspect you'll get better stress distribution down on the butt area (the power area) with those first two line guides a bit closer. Maybe 9 or 10 inches.

...........

Thanks Tom, il certainly consider bringing them both in a little closer! I have yet to apply thread finish so plenty of time to play about with it.

I feel much happier with the over all build now, those small river Wild brown trout better watch out! haha

The line rub prevention guide shouldn't be more than maybe 4 to 5 inches from either of the first two line guides.

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Hi Tom,

I have the bumper set dead on 5 inches.

And thank you for all the help ( thanks to everyone) its greatly appreciated!


Regards,

Tom

I'm currently building two spiral wrapped rods; a rail rod and a slow pitch rod. Over the last couple of years I've only built two "conventional" bait/casting rods because the customer was adamant that it was what they wanted. I always recommend and promote the spiral wrap, and given the choice, I'll never build a conventional rod again. The spiral wrap is just that good. Made a heavy bait rod and a slow pitch rod for a customer two years ago conventionally because it was what he wanted, and got a fast phone call three weeks before a trip he was making to Alaska asking if I could spiral wrap another blank I had in stock for him before he left. So I did. When he returned I asked how he liked the spiral wrap. Said he never used it due to peer pressure on the boat from having a "funny looking rod". So last year, same trip, his buddy used the "funny looking rod" and it blew him away. So now he won't use anything but, and the current slow pitch build is for him.

My method of setting the guide train is probably a bit different from the norm. I set the butt guide so that the line is roughly centered in the ring, using a fully loaded reel of the size that will be used, set the next guide approximately 90 degrees off zero, and rather than having one bumper guide I let the line tell me where the other transition guides should go during static tensioning. The 90 degree guide may become 70 degrees depending on what I'm seeing. I keep the line centered in each ring until the spiral is accomplished. Sometimes it may be only one bumper, other times it could be as many as five until I'm at 180 degrees.I guess it's sort of a takeoff on the Rodmaker article on the Cagey setup from a few years ago. But it looks good, performs even better, and all my customers are wild about it. Made two spiral wrapped steelhead rods for a guy last year and he says they are just unbelievable. So there's my take on it.

Do have two rhetorical questions for the group. Is it possible to have too many guides in a guide train? I suppose you could have a guide every two inches and never worry about the line touching the blank, and the only downside I can see is the added weight from the extra guides. Would there any meaningful gain in line control across the blank?

Dave Sytsma

David,

Sounds like what you are calling "bumper guides" are actually transition guides. A "bumper guide" would never have any load on it other than directly against the blank and it only takes one to do the job.

There are many spiral wrap systems. All work well. The Simple Spiral is largely mis-understood as it does not have any transition guides. The "bumper" or better termed, "rub prevention guide" is just there to keep the line from touching the blank between the actual 1st and 2nd guides.

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