I recently finished building a point blank 73MXF, and used Gen 4 low build on the rod, and did 3 light coats. After the epoxy had dried for over 24 hours, when I put a little stress on the first two guides (Fuji KL-H 20 Titanium SiC, and a KL-H 12), they appeared to flex a little away from the blank, and the epoxy moved with it. Right where the guide turns from the Foot to the frame of the ring, the epoxy pulls off of the rod if you apply a little pressure to the guide, as if it were being stressed by the line when fighting a fish. I'm wondering if I need to put another coat of LIGHT epoxy on it, and make sure it gets in the spot were the guide wants to pull away from the blank. If I do this, should I lightly sand the orignal epoxy so it bonds with it better since the epoxy on there has been cured for 5 days or so now?

I'm not sure how to upload photos on here. I have the photos on my PC here.

I have used Gen 4 on my last 4 fly rod builds on both single foot and double foot guides. I have applied 3 thin coats. I have had zero issues and the dried epoxy is quite hard, very clear and certainly does not move in any way.

Have you ensured a good mix (somewhere near 50/50)? I don't think it should matter, but I typically let my first coat dry for two days. Are you thinning the mix with DNA or another agent?

What thread did you use? Did you apply a color preserver? How far past the edge of the thread wrap are you applying the epoxy coat?

I happened to put my first coat of Gen 4 on a rod yesterday and less than 24 hours later it has cured quite nicely. I had even thinned it with some Iso alcohol.

If you used a color preserver that could be the issue. Color preserver is more of a coating of the thread than a medium that is absorbed, and you need to ensure it is fully dried, and if you apply too much or too little you can have issues. Or if it was old or bad color preserver that could be the issue. I tend to avoid it.

Have you made many rods before, and are you sure your thread wraps on the Point Blank were sufficiently tight and well secured?

I hate to say it, but the way you describe things, I would be tempted to rebuild the rod. A blast from a heat gun on the wraps -- not too much as you don't want to overheat the blank -- will enable you to pretty easily cut away the guides if you have to. I recently broke a rod tip section and used the heat gun method to soften the epoxy a bit and cut away the guides for reuse.

Good luck.

I think 24 hours may be a little too soon to stress guides the way it sounds like you did. I've noticed Gen 4 low build being not tacky but not that hard at 24 hours. Give them another day and find out how the epoxy feels. If it's not bonding to the blank it sounds like possible contamination. I have had zero problems with Gen 4 low build.

Alex,
After applying epoxy - let the rod cure for 2 weeks before doing any sort of stress testing on the rod.
Epoxy can be tack free in 24 hours, but many epoxies continue to cure for some time in the future.

Best wishes

I've built plenty of rods before and never had this happen. I usually use the normal Gen4 or Diamond II and havent had any issues. I wish i could upload a photo on here.

I build a casting rod at the same time and haven't had any issues. I just think there was something there that prevented a strong bond right at the foot of the guide. It is still very strong, but when flexed it lifts up a little bit. I noticed the gen 4 color preserver made the thread a lot harder than the other color preserver i was using.

I'm thinking of recoating the two guides that I'm seeing that happen and see if that solves it. If not, i'll pull off the epoxy and re-wrap and re-do the guides. I've also used the Gen 4 color preserver for the first time on this, and usually use the other stuff.

before you apply an additional coat wipe the area in question with alcohol to remove any contaminants .

Fishing is not a matter of life or death, it's much more important than that

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the objective of thread epoxy is not really to "bond" the thread or the guide to the rod in the manner that bonding epoxy bonds a real seat to the blank, but rather to coat, protect and and solidify the thread which is really holding the guide to the blank. I think of it more functioning like a shrink wrap than a solid bonding epoxy. It is softer and more pliable than true bonding epoxy.

This is one reason why thread epoxy and the thread under it is rather easy to remove, as you can warm it up a bit, slice into it, and start unraveling the thread which is coated but not really saturated or heavily bonded to the thread epoxy.

This is one reason why I like to wait 48 hours before coat number 2, but that is just me, and may be too conservative. I also typically dilute Gen 4 or most thread epoxy mixes with some Iso Alcohol (I used to use DNA, but Iso works quite well), at least 90% pure, as this seems to provide a bit more saturation, increases the life of the thread epoxy in the aluminum cup, and also flows over the edge of the thread onto the blank a bit better. Getting a good 1/8 or 1/16th inch overlap or transition from thread to blank is vital, as is the thread epoxy wicking into the tunnel created by the guide foot. Lack of transition and lack of tunnel wicking will lead to issues down the line.

Alex, are you talking about the epoxy that wicks up behind the guide?
If so I have this happen with all my spinning guides.
I can hear an audible click if I flex the guide after the epoxy hardens.
I figured this was the epoxy losing its grip on the blank.
I solved this problem by wrapping behind the guide, like you would with a locking wrap.
In my case I wrap with 12 turns of thread (AA from Hitena) behind the guide.
No more clicking!
Making a waterbreak free surface would probably help as well.
A little time consuming and you would have to make sure of your guide placement.

TJB

I currently have this issue too. Built three rods with Gen4 and the guides/epoxy "break" from the rod blank, even after a week of sitting. Would room/drying temp make a difference?

Gen4, reportably is a good thread finish.
Assuming you did not use CP - you probably did not use my technique to fill tunnels.
First of all, thread epoxy is NOT just to protect thread.
The thread and well applied epoxy forms a composite that both protects thread and bonds guides to the blank.
Common sense will tell you that if you are able to move guides to align them - the thread does not hold them securely.
Procedure:
After guides are wrapped - keep adding epoxy to tunnel opening until the epoxy wicks all the way to end of guide foot.
Then, and only then, do I apply epoxy to the wrap.
Caveat: do not use the stripping guide as a lever to assemble and disassemble rod sections.
Herb
CTS

Wow, Herb. How great it is to have someone else recognize that threads and the epoxy form a composite structure (think plywood.) And that being able to move guides before epoxy indicates there is something strength-wise missing at that stage.

I also know that when I try to take a guide off when I have not used CP, it can be VERY tough. CP to some degree interupts/disrupts the bonding, but the combination with CP in the mix is still easily strong enough to the job. All good advice, thanks!

I wonder if those having troubles with Gen 4 are doing stuff that might compromise its ability to do its job. Thinning, excessive heat, contamination from wiping with fluids, over-stressing the guides. . . ??? I follow the best practices that have been published on this site for years and I've never felt that a guide was not "bonding" to the blank, never have heard clicking.

I have used at least 4 different thread epoxies over the years and never had an issue with clicking or loosening guides. I only make fly rods, and I have used single foot snake, double foot snake, single foot without Forhan wrap, and single foot with Forhan wrap, as well as larger double foot strippers. I now do all my single foots with Forhan.

I think Herb and Mick are on target. Thread should be wrapped tightly enough that once the guide is secured with thread you should only be able to adjust it minimally. Second, you need to ensure the loop you pull through to secure the thread is passing through enough wraps to hold the thread end securely. Third, ensuring the tunnel is filled with thread epoxy is critical.

Also, I am very careful to grind or file down all my guide feet to ensure a nice even slope from foot to rod blank, thus ensuring as smooth and tight a wrap as possible as it progresses up the foot. If that transition is loose or too abrupt that could be a place that pops or pulls back. I also make sure to pack my wraps very well as I proceed on each wrap.

I have found some color preservers to dry rather rubbery and sit on top of the thread and not really soak it, as Mick observed. That is another way to potentially have issues. When I have used CP I have diluted it a bit on the first coat with DNA and done two coats.

I am just completing my 4th rod with Gen 4. For each I have used no CP, have used Fuji thread with CP already in it, and have put on three thin coats, and the first I've let dry at room temperature for 48 hours. On one of the rods, I put a few drops of DNA into the 50/50 mix for each coat, and on the last 3 I have used maybe 15% Iso Alcohol (minimum 90% Iso) to thin each 50/50 mix (based on a recommendation from a friend who builds nice rods, mostly with silk thread). I have had zero issues.

In fact, out of my own dopiness, I broke a section in each of two of the rods, and when I went to remove the guides the thread epoxy was very hard, clear and the guides on super tight. I had to heat the thread epoxy with a heat gun and cut the guides off with a sharp razor blade. I have caught some large fish on all these rods and guide clicking or loosening was never an issue.

So, sadly, something is amiss. Good luck.

Well, I tried to put another coat of epoxy on the two guides (Fuji KL-H 20 and KL-H 10), and I waited two days before I tested the flex on the guide. Usually I wait 72 hours before using the rod on the lake. When I flexed the guide, the 20 epoxy at where the foot of the guide turns up to the ring, the epoxy popped right off the blank, but the guide stayed solid on the rod. As this being a rod I'm building for myself and want it to be perfect, I decided to cut off the epoxy, clean and re-wrap the guide. I used one coat of Gen 4 VIVID CP, let it dry for around 10 hours, then put a heavy coat of epoxy on the thread and let it sit and spin for around 10 minutes. Then I did what I always do and took the excess off and made sure the tunnels were full. I waited around 10 hours to apply the second coat and its looking good now. One more coat tonight and I'll let it cure for at least 72 hours before i put it to work. I've built over 50 rods in the last 5 years and never had this happen, only when I switched to Gen 4 light build did this happen.

Alex,
If you don't like the results with this epoxy, bo back to your former epoxy where you had no issues.

Be safe

Alex
You can not make the statement that the tunnels are entirely filled - Unless you allowed the epoxy to wick entirely to end of wrap before you epoxy wrap.
Yes - you filled the opening- but that's not saying much for stabilizing the guide.
And since you used CP - I'm pretty sure you just closed openings. Because CP will inhibit wicking of the epoxy
Herb
CTS



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2024 11:33AM by Herb Ladenheim.