Tom Kirkman Wrote:
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> Robert,

> Why would there be any extra epoxy?" Surely you
aren't filling in the space between the masking
tape bushings (at least I hope not). Encapsulating
means you're just coating over the ends of the
tape to seal out any moisture.

Wow. WOW!!!!!!!

OK Tom, I'm either going to be the only person who does/has done this, or the only one to admit it. How does simply "encapsulating" the tape arbors provide enough contact areas on the blank with the arbors to provide the grip you're hoping for? If I made three half inch arbors along the span of an average reel seat, and applied very little epoxy to the flat surfaces and the circumference of each arbor, with essentially no epoxy between the arbors, it seems to me that all I will end up with is a razor thin layer of epoxy between the circumferences of the arbors and the barrel of the reel seat...in three spots.

1) Am I looking at that correctly?

2) Is that enough to solidly hold that reel seat to the blank?

We only have our opinions based on our experiences, Ernie. But my take is that "totally encapsulating" means totally covering the masking tape with epoxy so that no area of it can be exposed to anything. With a "slip fit" of the seat to the arbor, the seat slides on and epoxy covers enough/all of the seat to tape arbor interface. And bottom line, yes, plenty of strength. And I don't think it takes three for a 4 inch spin seat. I have built a lot of rods this way and have NO failures.

Does the same rule apply to fly seats also?

I will say this: you haven't lived until you've removed a fully encapsulated masking tape arbor from a blank. Not fun.

LOL Lynn. Amen brother.

And Ernie ..... as I mentioned above, I've only used masking tape arbors one time, but I will readily and gladly admit that I covered and encapsulated not only the masking tape arbors, but all of the exposed rod blank between them. I had that stuff gobbed on there. lol

I'm like you, not only am I not trusting just having the surface of the tape arbors as epoxy contact points with the blank, as Marcus said earlier .... the surface of tape is slick. In fact. I just poured water on a couple of tape arbors I quickly made using 1/4" wide masking tape, is it is not a water break surface.

For guys that use masking tape arbors frequently? Do you scuff the surface of your tape arbors before applying epoxy?

I prefer rigid polyurethane myself but have used masking tape on larger surf rod builds because I couldn't find an arbor suitable for the larger butt section of my surf rods . I don't just use 3 small sections of tape for the length of the reel seat though because it doesn't offer the seat as nearly as much contact area as I prefer . I want the length of the entire reel seat to make contact underneath for the maximum transmission of vibration , I have used rod wrapping thread to achieve this filling in the spaces between the short arbors which has worked very well and I've also used modified polyurethane arbors including two thinned out half's that fit together . You can use small sections of masking tape/ drywall tape and it will work fine and hold for the life of the rod if done properly , I just prefer much more contact between the arbor and seat which not only offers an even better connection but also enhances sensitivity .

As far as weight, on an 11 foot surf rod , it's minimal because you aren't filling in large open spaces you're just coating the surface where the real seat will be positioned . I'm so used to surf rods that when I switch to my inshore rods they all feel as light as a feather , that being said on my inshore rods I always use full length rigid polyurethane arbors never tape of any kind because not only does rigid polyurethane offer a super light build I need the extra sensitivity with my inshore rods that a full length arbor allows .

I have used both the foam and masking tape arbors with no failures for many years (decades). I have built mostly freshwater rods that range from crappie to muskie rods. I don't scuff the tape arbors placed about a quarter inch from either the reel seat or grip tenon ends. Both the sides and top surfaces of the arbors get coated with the rod building epoxy (encapsulating).

I used a masking tape arbor on the first rod I made in 1986, an Orvis Far-n-Fine fly rod. It lasted about 10 years, then one day when I tried to take the reel off after fishing the reel seat fell off the blank. The masking tape had pretty much disintegrated. I'll not ever do that again. None of the other seats I've ever made have failed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2024 08:36PM by Mike Naylor.

Roger Wilson, about how many rods with tape arbors have you built? And no failures.

Michael

The difference between the weight of tape and foam or graphite arbors doesn't concern me because I really can't tell the difference.

I use a full length Fuji graphite arbor. I get the next size up and machine the arbor so it's a snug fit in the reel seat.

This result is 100% contact and a minimum bond line.

I have no issues with tape arbors they work well and do not discourage its use, but they are outside of my comfort zone.

If you prefer tape arbors go for it,... I'd still go fishing with you.

Have fun

John, I've repeatedly said I'm not advocating tape, and I prefer foam. I was just posting that the weight difference is very small in spite of all the posts dissing them for their weight. But the arguments that they don't last are wrong if they are totally encapsulated. If one does a good job on fit and gluing of the seat and grips, no water will ever get in anyway.

Earlier, someone mentioned how difficult it is to remove a tape arbor that was installed properly. I experienced that on a fly rod from which I was salvaging an expensive reel seat. They are very tough indeed. That fly rod had been immersed in salt water many times and showed no deterioration.

I'm not going to comment further unless Roger "testifiies," then I expect it will be a cheer.

Michael,
A few dozen.

Take care
Roger

Thank you, Roger.

I build only fly rods and have used both masking tape and a foam arbor to properly seat the reel seat. I'll use a little tape build up as well if the cork grip has a gap here or there after reaming. I'd rather a nice tight cork or real seat fit with tape than using gobs of epoxy instead. Of course on a reel seat with wooden spacer either nothing or a minimal amount of tape is required. Neither method has ever failed me in the 10 or so fly rods I have built in the last few years, and I have not noticed any significant weight difference either way. Nor have I suffered water infiltration.

I use either two or three 1/4" or so wide tape wrap areas, wrapped out wide enough to just be able to slip on the reel seat, and I apply an ample amount of epoxy but not gobs of it, with the epoxy concentrated on and near the tape. Also, the epoxy is going to weigh a bit less when it dries, how much I have never measured, but clearly some weight is lost in drying,

Fly rod reel seats tend to be slim enough that I generally go the tape route, as if I use foam I wind up sanding 75% of it away. I've also thought of just cutting three pieces of foam, similar in shape to one section of cork (but thinner), and using those instead of tape, but it is very easy and precise to build up tape, or back off some, whereas sanding down the foam in a uniform circle is not easy.

"clearly some weight is lost in drying,"

Maybe. But it doesn't dry, it cures, and molecules of one tie up with molecules of the other. The heat may lose a little mass, but very little. So if there is any weight change, I'll bet no one can measure it. It would be easy to check, just put some epoxy into a pan, mix it, weigh it, let it set, and weigh it again. I have some old epoxy, I think I'll do it. What are the bets on how much change there is?

I was probably too emphatic in using he word "clearly." I would think clearly there is not a weight increase, but I would think any loss would less than 10%, probably less than 5%. But I would be curious to find out. I am not schooled in the chemical reaction of epoxy, but I am presuming there must be a tad of outgassing or evaporation, but not much..

Overall, I believe the epoxy in a reel seat if applied in the correct amount will have a negligible effect on the rod's weight or swing weight. A lot of folks go overboard on epoxy use. It is a very strong bonding agent when properly applied.

I also make golf clubs, and the golf club shaft is affixed to the club head with basic epoxy. Very little is required.

On a rare occasion you will see a club head fly off a shaft. Typically that is the result of a poor epoxy application, not a lack of epoxy strength. A driver head is swung at 115 mph on the PGA tour and hits a ball the rapidly accelerates to speeds over 180 mph. So there is a lot of force on that shaft, and bend and torque. The OEM golf club companies have tour vans on site at tournaments that will make or tweak player's clubs. Sometimes they will use a 10-minute epoxy, or a bit longer life epoxy but shorten the curing time with special heating units. I watch a lot of golf and cannot recall the last time I saw a clubhead fly off on TV.

And I have made a lot of clubs and can only think of one that the clubhead came loose on. A lack of epoxy would not have been the issue, rather a poorly mixed batch or the shaft and club hosel not cleaned or prepped sufficiently. It is a good idea to scuff up a rod blank a bit under