I’ve been looking at the RodMaker magazine article: Spinning Rod - Guide Sizing and Placement. I don’t know if the information is still pertinent but it states that “the running guides which includes the “choker” guide should be identical in size and frame style”. Am I reading that correctly … the choker guide should be the same in all respects as the running guides? I would have thought it would be a size larger.

It’s my understanding that the Choke guide is the first running guide following the reduction guides, so it can be the same size

The choke guide is the first running guide. They will all be the same size

The reason the first running guide is named "choke" guide is because at that point no further reduction (choking) of the line takes place beyond it as all the remaining guides are no smaller than the choke guide.

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I agree with Evan's use of words, "the choke guide can be the same size as the remainder of the running guides", It doesn't necessarily have to be.

In a KR concept guide train, where the choke guide is either a KB or KT guide. I use a KB with the same size ring as the 3rd reduction guide's ring size. I do this because I use fluorocarbon line as the main line on spinning rods, and I think the slightly taller, 5.5 KB ( taller because the ring is larger) versus a size 5 or 4.5 KT, helps the stiffer line turn the corner a little better. I can't honestly say that I have done actual casting distance tests to verify that belief. But since I went to the same size ring as the 3rd reduction guide, it seems like the rods I've built that way, cast better than rods that I've went straight to a 4.5 as the choke guide.

Also, Fuji has an optional taller choke guide concept for their KR concept guide trains, and in the guide grouping that I use, they call for a size 6 ring for the taller choke guide, and then moving to 5' or smaller for the running guides. I'll be trying my first taller choke guide set up on a rod I'm currently working on. I received the guides yesterday, just waiting for the tip top to show up from another vendor before I put it into practice.

Whatever the point on the guide system where there is no more line "choking" is the choke guide. As long as the guides keep getting smaller you have not reached the choke guide yet. The first running guide is therefore the choke guide by the original definition of the concept. When people keep changing the terms it only creates confusion. What Evan said is correct.

The first guide past the reduction train is the choke guide regardless of the rest of the runners, whatever size they might be. There is only one choke point.

Let me try it this way ---- the last reduction guide and the first running guide are one and the same --- the choke guide. Beyond that point there is no more line choking. Prior to that point the line is still being choked down. Line choking stops when the guides no longer get any smaller.

The choke guide is the guide that completes the line “choking” process. By necessity of that task, it will be the smallest guide on the rod. It should be located on the rod’s choke point. Any guides beyond the choke guide will be the same size as the choke guide. They are termed “running guides.” In effect, the choke guide is the first running guide.

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The following is a copy and paste directly from this forums glossary.

Choke Guide: Part of the "New Guide Concept System." The guide located at that point along the blank where a line drawn from the reel spool centerline will intersect the rod blank.

That is correct. And the guide located at the choke point should be the smallest guide used. If it's not, then you have not fully choked the line at the choke point and not realizing the designed benefits of the concept.

Perhaps further context is needed. From the same article the Glossary term is taken from: "Note the point where the rod blank intersects with the table edge. Set your smallest and lowest guide against the blank in the location where it's outer edge just touches the table edge."

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Tom, I haven't read the article you said the definition of choke guide in the glossary, was taken from. The reason I am having difficulty completely buying into what you're saying about the choke guide being the smallest or same size as the running guides, is due to what I've been reading from Angler's Resource, (Fuji) in regards to their, I guess fairly new concept, of using a taller choke guide.

In the standard KR concept guide train, where a KB is used in the choke guide position, their diagrams show the choke guide and the running guides having the same size rings. In their diagrams dealing with using a higher framed choke guide, the running guides are showing being a smaller size ring.

For instance, in the KR guide grouping I use, the taller choke guide is either a 6L, or a 5.5L. One of Fuji's diagrams for the guide group I use, shows that 5.5L, followed by size 4 KT running guides. A different Fuji diagram I have looked at illustrating the taller framed choke guide option, shows the taller choke guide being a 6L, followed by size 5 KTs.

The 5.5L in one example, and the 6L in another example are labeled as belly guides in the diagrams, which is the exact same term they use when a KB is used in the choke guide position.

The Fuji diagrams I have looked at, and the literature I have read as well, are consistent in calling the choke guide the guide that is positioned at the choke point of the rod. The same as the definition of choke guide, in the glossary. No where in any Fuji literature I have read, does it say that the choke guide has to be, or should be, the same size as the guides that are typically the smallest ring size guides on a rod, the running guides.

I understand what you and Mike are saying in regards to the line not technically being fully choked until it reaches the smallest guide. But Angler's Resource, (Fuji) at least from my interpretation, defines the choke guide as it is defined in the glossary. And if not, then why in their diagrams illustrating the tall choke guide option, do they call out running guides (they actually call them tip top guide groups on the one diagram) that have a smaller ring than the choke guide? If you look at one of their diagrams, when using the taller choke guide option, the length from the stripper guide to the choke guide increases 1 cm when compared to the length from the stripper to the choke guide on a guide train that uses a KB as the choke guide.

If as you say, the choke guide is the first guide that is the same size as the running guides, then in a guide train using the tall choke guide option where it calls for the tall choke guide to be either a size 6 or size 5.5 ring followed KT 5's or 4's as running guides, would by your definition, mean the choke point would technically be an additional 12.5 cm further down the rod.

Things that make you go hmmm .....

"...would by your definition, mean the choke point would technically be an additional 12.5 cm further down the rod." Yes it would, and that would be incorrect insofar as where the actual choke or intersect point actually is.

If you consult the original NGC system you will see the illustrations that depict the NGC and from the choke point to the tiptop all the guides are the same size and height. If you are using a taller guide in what you term the choke point you might want to consider moving that one back and keeping the other lower guides from the choke (or intersect, etc.) point to the tip top. I have rarely seen any advantage in moving the choke point further out. Most of the time the rod will cast just as well if you move the choke point back towards the reel by one guide, unless one is using a very stiff or heavy line.

Fuji may be interjecting a new twist on the choke guide with a taller model in that position. Previously the original NGC, 27X and other variations such as the later Fuji butt guide distance x .45, have located the smallest and lowest guide at the choke point.

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As a great man has said repeatedly, "there is a lot of flexibility in laying out a guide train"

From my understanding of what I've read from Angler's Resource, the tall choke guide came out of needing to help leader knots "turn the corner" more easily. One of the diagrams I've looked at depicting the tall choke guide as well as the standard KB choke guide, is dated as being revised on 5/3 2022.

And I am using the terminology that Angler's Resource is using in their diagrams. Some literature and diagrams call a KB the choke guide, and the taller famed guide, a choke guide. Other literature and diagrams call the guide at the choke point, a belly guide. It doesn't matter if the guide is a KB,of the same size as the running guides, or a taller framed guide with a larger ring than the running guides. It's still called a belly guide.

Regardless of what term they use, choke guide, or belly guide, it's the guide that is placed at the intersection of the imaginary line from the spool shaft, to the rod blank. From what I gather from reading the information in this link, [anglersresource.net] the taller choke guide is placed using the same butt guide distance to rod tip x .45 formula, that a standard KB guide is placed.

Norman ......

The KR spinning guide concept came out in 2014 as a modified version of the NGC and was initially designed as a braided line micro-guide concept. The small diameter, limpness, and smoothness of braid allowed for lighter high framed small ringed guides to be used to rapidly choke and control the line so it smoothly enters small low profile running guides. Fuji has done a lot of research with setting up guide trains and showed that the lighter and smaller KR concept guides had a distinct functional advantage. Not only did it work well with braid but also performed very well with light mono and fluorocarbon lines. I believe one of the reasons they came up with a high belly guide was to make the KR concept more amenable to using non-braided line and larger runners. In other words to make it more universally accepted. When one shortens the choke point, as the KR concept does, the line angle from the spool increases. This is fine for braided line but not so much for stiffer mono or fluoro. By using a high belly (choke) guide, this angle is slightly reduced making for a little smoother transition of line and leader knots into the remaining running guides. In addition, the higher belly guide enable one to use more conventionally sized runners, such as size 6, 7, or even 8. So based on this and my use of the KR concept, I have no problems using a higher choke guide. It all boils down to what works for you. Try it and see how you like it. Experimentation is a great way to convince yourself what works and what doesn’t. As a side note, if one dissects some of the Fuji publications showing KR guide layouts, the ones using a high belly guide have a slightly longer reduction train length. I guess this also helps to decrease line angle through the reduction train.
Norm

The ring size for the choke and runners should be the same size. As for the frame, while it says the frame style should also be the same, I think the better term is "similar". The choke guide (after the KL-H reduction train) is the KB belly guide. After the belly guides you have the KT guides to the tip. The KBs and KTs to the tip are the running guides. So the running guides consist of KB and KT frames, which are not the same, but similar and complimentary. So, the KBs and KTs including the designated choke guide should be the same size.

I would try to make the choke guide the same size as the running guides. I currently find that that won't be possible for me on a rod I'm working on. The best layout for me is to use size 5.5 KB belly guides (meaning the choke is size 5.5). Then use size 5 KTs for the rest of the running guides The reason is because the size 5 KBs and size 5.5 KTs are out of stock. So I can't order the KB and KT guides in the same size. I'm thinking that a 0.5 mm difference in ring size won't affect the functionality of the running guides.

David,

That's where we obviously parted company - I am working directly with the NGC as developed by Fuji Japan. Angler's Resource is their U.S distributor and has developed their (Jim Ising) own variations of the original concept developed by Fuji.

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Ryan Edamatsu Wrote:
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> I would try to make the choke guide the same size
> as the running guides. I currently find that that
> won't be possible for me on a rod I'm working on.
> The best layout for me is to use size 5.5 KB belly
> guides (meaning the choke is size 5.5). Then use
> size 5 KTs for the rest of the running guides The
> reason is because the size 5 KBs and size 5.5 KTs
> are out of stock. So I can't order the KB and KT
> guides in the same size. I'm thinking that a 0.5
> mm difference in ring size won't affect the
> functionality of the running guides.


You won't notice any practical difference. If you're in a hurry and can't wait there is no reason not to use the 5.5 in that position. If it bothers you, just affix that one with CP and then replace it when the one you want is in stock. Although, as I said it's unlikely you'll notice any practical difference.

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