Hi I'm doing research on how to build my first surf rod and my question is based on the article on Anglers Resource website titled "Building the KR Concept Spinning Rod"

So I decided to go with the 11' Black Hole East Coast 2-6oz lure rated blank and build it according to the KR concept.

The article suggests some guidelines like using the KL25H stripper if using lines greater 20lb braid, the choke and the next running guide should be of the KB series, and the rest of the running guides should be of the KT series. Then they recommended three reduction guide sets which are KL25H, KL12H, KL5.5M for Micro rods, and KL25H, KL12H, KL7M, KL6L or
KL25H, KL12H, KL8M, KL7L for long conventional rods.

So first question is what is the difference in attributes between a micro rod or a conventional rod and which one is recommended for a surf rod for plugging?

Second question is based on the guidelines would my guide order look something like this: KL25H (stripper), KL12H, KL7M, KB6 (choke guide), KB6 (next running guide), KT6, KT6, KT6, KG6 (Tip)?

Many thanks!

Edit: I learned that single footed KL guides are not the best for surf rods intending to use 30-50lb braids and the RV guides are too expensive. So I will be going with the KW series instead for my first build.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2024 06:02PM by samuel pan.

Samuel,

A Micro set up uses guides smaller than a size 6 running guide, I believe. Your mock-up guide train would be a 'conventional' build using size 6 guides.

If you scroll down the forum list, you will find some other discussions about the KR Concept. Towards the end of one of those chats surf rod guide trains comes up (on page 3?). Some good talk and explanation there by chris c nash, avid surf fisherman. Perhaps you have already read those posts. I'd try and help you more, but I don't know enough about surf rods to make a reputable comment.

I will copy a link to this discussion.

You are ahead of the game by reading up on the KR concept. Having a firm grasp on the concepts and nomenclature helps greatly.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2024 10:43AM by Les Cline.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

This is a good discussion on KR.

oh man thanks for taking the time to refer me to the discussion instead of saying "use the search function" like I should have and for the encouraging words. much appreciated.

If you are going to use double foot KW guides for your surf rod, then you will be be doing a New Guide Concept (NGC) layout and not a KR Concept layout. For surf rods most people use the NGC and it works great. If you want a double foot KR set up then you will need to use the Fuji RV-H guides in the reduction train. However, they only come in a titanium frame, thus they are more expensive. SeaGuide has double foot high frame reduction guides (XQHG) that could be used in a KR-like layout, and they come in both stainless and titanium frames.

Norm.

Thanks Norm! it is good to know that there is a more economical way of doing the KR concept layout even if it means venturing away from Fuji guides. I'm curious to know how SeaGuide compares to Fuji guides. What are your experience with them?

In my opinion, I think the New Guide Concept is the more ideal layout for your 11ft surf rod. The KR concept is more ideal for rods using 14lb mono and under or 30lb braid and under. Essentially, rods smaller and lighter than yours.

You can definitely use the KW guides for the NGC layout.

Ryan Edamatsu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In my opinion, I think the New Guide Concept is
> the more ideal layout for your 11ft surf rod. The
> KR concept is more ideal for rods using 14lb mono
> and under or 30lb braid and under. Essentially,
> rods smaller and lighter than yours.
>
> You can definitely use the KW guides for the NGC
> layout.

Yea after reading the thread Les Cline linked I realized that NGC with KW guides will be more economically practical. So I went and measured my Shimano Vanford 5000 and punched in the measurements into the GPS (Guide Placement Software) and these are the results.

Angle: 87.41 degrees
Choke: 70.59"
Reduction Guide Train: KW
G1 and G2: Too close
G3: 30 @ 18.74"
G4: 30L @ 27.64"
G5: 25 @ 34.76"
G6: 20 @ 45.71"
G7: 16 @ 52.17"
G8: 12 @ 55.47
G9: 10 @ 57.87"
G10: 8 @ 59.88"
G11: 7 @ 61.61"
G12: 6 @ 63.03"
G13: 5.5 @ 63.98"

Now I know they don't expect me to put guides 2 inches from one another so what gives? I'm guessing I can start at G4: 30L @ 27.64" then, G6: 20 @ 45.71", G9: 10 @ 57.87", G12: 6 @ 63.03", then fit as many size 6 guides as I can and then tip it with a size 6 tip top? Am I on the right track?

I don’t do a lot of surf rods, and those that I’ve done I used KW guides in a NGC. However, with that said Fuji recommends the RV25 (55.9 mm), RV16 (36 mm), and KW12H (25.6 mm) as reduction train height grouping for surf rods. The SeaGuide XQ25H (55 mm), XQ16H (35 mm), and XQ12H (26 mm) are very similar in height to the Fuji guides, so they should serve as a suitable substitute. An XQ10 could be used as a choke guide, with XQ8, XQ7 or XQ6 guides being used as runners. Could also use single foot runners if you wished. A lot of different options available. These are my thoughts, and I’m sure others may offer something different.
Norm

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don’t do a lot of surf rods, and those that
> I’ve done I used KW guides in a NGC. However,
> with that said Fuji recommends the RV25 (55.9 mm),
> RV16 (36 mm), and KW12H (25.6 mm) as reduction
> train height grouping for surf rods. The SeaGuide
> XQ25H (55 mm), XQ16H (35 mm), and XQ12H (26 mm)
> are very similar in height to the Fuji guides, so
> they should serve as a suitable substitute. An
> XQ10 could be used as a choke guide, with XQ8, XQ7
> or XQ6 guides being used as runners. Could also
> use single foot runners if you wished. A lot of
> different options available. These are my
> thoughts, and I’m sure others may offer
> something different.
> Norm

I am very very tempted to use 4 KL guides for the reduction train since Fuji says they're designed to work with 9ft+ rods using 30-50lb braid. The only thing stopping me is Chris Nash's experience with single foot guides on his 11ft surf rod and the fact that I don't know of a rod manufacturer that uses it for their surf rods. For example ODM uses NGC for their factory surf rods. Also Ryan Edamatsu's suggesting that KR concepts are for rods using braids under 30lbs. I am conflicted.

A double foot KR concept for a surf rod with size 8, 7, or 6 runners (single ft or double ft), as outlines above, will work fine with 30 to 50 # braid. It would be considered a conventional KR layout vs a micro layout. Single foot KL guides would also work, but they are considered NGC guides. Could use KL30, KL20, KL12 to your runners. Another NGC option, KW30, KL20, KL12, to your runners would also work and gives you a double ft butt guide. A double ft NGC option is, KW30, KW25, KW20, KW12 to your single or double ft runners. It should be noted that the KL20 is taller than the KW 20, so it pairs well with either the KW30 or KL30. A bunch of different options out there. It just a matter of choosing an option you like.
Norm

Thank you Norm. I have some deciding to do but I'll definitely update here when I do. I appreciate you and everyone's time.

samuel,

I found a bit more good info/discussion about surf builds.. Send me an email and I'll send it to you (click my name and you can see my email address). It may help you - or at least get you thinking about things. I know when trying something new or for the first time, I appreciated all the help I could get, and I got a lot of help here.