Kevin, thank you for sharing the dimensions and CCS numbers you got for MB 733 X ray. I definitely find them interesting. The tip on mine is 5/64ths, but the butt is 15.5 mm (.611") I have two of the blanks, and both are the same dimensions. CCS numbers I got for both blanks, BTW, I posted the numbers for one of them in the CCS data base thread, but one has an IP of 557 grams, the other 552 grams. AAs for both are 76 - 76.4. Quite a difference from the 499 IP that you got on yours, and your action is a tad faster. I can see my tip being slightly larger accounting for the small difference we have in AA's. But I would expect your IP to be closer to mine, because your butt dimension is a tad bigger.

As far as the butt dimensions on our blanks, as I mentioned above, I communicated that to NFC. Aleks actually. While his complete explanation was more detailed than I posted above, it pretty much boiled down to what I posted earlier.

What is really interesting, is that one of the postings for the MB 733 X ray in the Rodbuilding.org data base, lists an IP of 438 grams, with an AA of 78. I know for sure that those numbers come from Norman Miller. I trust his, as well as your numbers. And as I have revisited and refined my CCS test set up many times, I trust mine as well. Interesting to have such wide variances. I'd be real curious as to what the blank dimensions are on the blank Norman got his numbers from.

As far as what you said about the MB 764, 724, and 684 being the same blank, just different lengths. I just checked my MB 724 blank, measuring 6" up from the butt. I think you're on to something there. While my numbers don't match up for either blank, the difference in dimensions on the web site is the same difference I measured on my 724 blank.

And I too learned a lot from this thread regarding a 4 guide reduction train. It caused me to revisit the "KR Concept - 16H or 20H" thread. The links that Michael Tarr, and Norman provided in that thread were and are very helpful in understanding the concept. And like I said, I don't use leaders, but I do use fluorocarbon line. And while it is really good fluorocarbon line, it's still way more stiff than braid. I can't remember which thread it was, but I have mentioned that when I go from 8# to 10# test fluorocarbon, that my casting distance suffers. I'm thinking maybe the more shallow angle the line will have entering the running guides as a result of using a taller choke guide, may help with that. At least I'm going to give a try, and find out.

David - I have not CCS measured the NFC MB733 X-ray. It’s not in my records, so it’s not a measurement I passed on the Kevin.
Norm

Norman, I must have been seeing things, and you are absolutely right (of course you are, you would know lol) ....... I just went back through all of the pages in the CCS data base thread and see that you only have one data entry in it on page 2, and it does not contain the MB 733 X ray. My sincere apologies.

I tell ya ...... I just don't know how I could have made that mistake. I know I saw those numbers I attributed to you in a thread somewhere. I don't know ...... maybe you had a post in that thread that was directly adjacent to it or something. Again ..... sorry about that.


Well, dang ....... I still wonder what the dimensions of the blank was that those numbers came from. Gotta think it was closer to the .520 butt diameter listed on the web site. I would think that would account for such a wide variance in power. But then again, Kevin's numbers were quite a bit lower than mine, and the butt diameter on his blank was larger than mine. Albeit not by much, but larger none the less.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2024 04:41PM by David Baylor.

John, the numbers I posted were for the NRX (not +) JWR 852s spinning rod. It came out more powerful than I thought it would as well. Checked three times.

Been a long time since I tried one of those rods, the NRX version, I had no problem throwing to 5/8 oz. just like the line class rating led me to believe it would.

David Baylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> As far as what you said about the MB 764, 724, and
> 684 being the same blank, just different lengths.
> I just checked my MB 724 blank, measuring 6" up
> from the butt. I think you're on to something
> there. While my numbers don't match up for either
> blank, the difference in dimensions on the web
> site is the same difference I measured on my 724
> blank.

I haven't confirmed with NFC but if you look at the Pattern Numbers in Catalog (or master list that has been in a few threads) Several models are using the same pattern number followed by decimal point and the length in inch. Then if you look at specs tips are all listed the same and butts for the shorter models slightly smaller. For example Xray MB 764 is pattern 889.9 (.9 is 90 inches) and MB 724 is pattern 889.86 (86 inches). There are other models that are similar... SB series is another series using same pattern#.

Thanks for all the input guys. Ive got 3 different blanks coming (X-rays: SB 722, 724, and MB 724)...If these dont meet my needs, then I'll look at other blank manufacturer options.

One quick question, can someone decode the spec fuji puts in their "KR guide Concept" pdf when they say "Braid Line: up to 1.5 + leader(max 14lb)" .....Im wondering: what units is the "1.5" in? And, what type of line are they referring to when they say "leader (max 14lb)"?

It's probably the P. E. rating, or diameter of the line, it's been around since the 90's and easier to use than a digital value when ordering line.

David Baylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you have access to an 852 JWR, you can do the
> CCS tests yourself. They don't take an extravagant
> set up to do, and as the name says, can be done
> with pennies. If you're looking for IP in grams,
> just multiply the number of pennies by 2.5.
>
> I'm curious as to what you'll be using the rod
> you build on the SB 724, for? The reason I ask is,
> I see the 852 JWR is rated 1/8 - 3/8 with an
> extra fast action. I'm in the process of building
> on an SB724 as we speak. CCS numbers I got for my
> blank are IP 513 grams. AA, 71. For me those
> numbers match what the web site has listed for the
> blank. 1/4 - 5/8 oz and a fast action.
>
> I'd call the SB 724 a tube jig, shaky head, light
> Texas rig rod. 1/4, maybe 5/16 weight plus the
> bait. Baits like a 3.5: tube, 4 - 6" shaky head
> worms, and Texas rig baits like Baby Brush Hogs,
> and 4" power worms. Stuff like that. At least
> that's what I'll be using my rod for.

The NRX+ 852 JWR is well known to be understated in its labeled lure ratings. The realistic range is 1/4oz. to 5/8oz.

John, with the 580 gram IP you posted for the rod, I would definitely agree. I like IPs of 550 - to maybe 600 for fishing tube jigs and light Texas rigs. 600 would be pushing it for a normal shaky head, but certainly not a magnum size shaky head. I usually fish tube jigs on one of the casting rods I have, built on an SJ 736 X ray blank. With IPs pretty much right at 730, a lot of people would probably consider that blank way too powerful for tube jigs, but I love it for 1/4 oz to 3/8 oz tube jigs. I also use them for 3/8 to 1/2 oz football jigs. Love those rods.

The spinning rod I mentioned building on the RX 10 ETEC72M blank has an IP of 567 grams. and while I built it to fish tube jigs on, I fish shaky heads with it 90% of the time. Again, probably more powerful that others my like for a shaky head. But I think it's perfect.

IMO when you're making long casts, a more powerful rod is a decided advantage. I've lost way too many fish that have hit near the end of long casts with lighter powered rods. And when you're in a tournament and have a 3 + lb smallmouth come out of the water 60 - 70' from the boat, you're glad you had a rod with enough power to set the hook at that kind of distance. At least I am. lol

As Spencer said, the 1.5 on the Fuji site is the line rating. It's a Japanese system with line rating in "Gou." One gou = 0.165 mm in line diameter. They prefer to rate line by diameter rather than strength, which makes sense in that US line ratings are totally made up and often the listed diameter is pretty far off from the actual diameter. One gou line = Sufix 832 8 lb and Berkely X9 20 lb. (These lines are basically the same strength per diameter. The 8 lb 832 is like 20 pound line, and the X9 is significantly thicker than listed and probably breaks at 30lbs).

My 852s JWR has a 3/16 oz jig worm (Minnesotan for shakey head) on 100% of the time.

Thanks guys. Amazing how I’ve fished my entire life and I’ve never learned about the P.E. system. I think the guide trains I have laid out should work well with 8-10lb 8 strand braid. The 20klh train will suit the 15lb braid better it seems. Thanks for the info.

On a side note, I got a call from the rod room to let me know I ordered handles that wouldn’t fit my reel seats (size 16 handles with size 16-15 VSS reel seats) so they reached out to see if I wanted to change my order to get the right components. Kelly ( the lady I spoke with) is going way above the mark to make sure what I order all fits together and she really could have just shipped it as it was my fault I ordered the wrong parts. That’s true customer service. I know who I’ll be ordering from in the future. Great company.

Hi All,

Just to close out this thread since I started it, I thought I would report back with the build details.

I decided to start with the SB724. In my opinion its good fit for a "Medium" power rod, but as others have stated, a bit on the "slow" side of Fast action. for what I plan to use this rod for (flukes and shaky head) I think it will work out quite well. Because I use braided line to leader (10-15lb braid and 8-12lb fluoro leader), I think the slightly slower action might come in handy when allowing the fish to "get the bait". With livescope, this is a challenge more than ever. Maybe the slower action rods will start to make a comeback in the bass world saturated with fast and extra fast rods? Time will tell.

For the guide train, I went with the following Fuji KLH Torzites:

20H-10H-7M-6L- and (5) size 5 runners plus a Tiptop Size 5-1.8mm - Targeted a typical bullseye configuration for the first 3 reduction guides, but with the high frame belly guide pushed forward until the bottom of the belly guide ring approached the top of the 3rd reduction guides ring. (Helps with leader knot turning the corner according to Fuji) I decided to go with the four guide (3 choking+1 high profile belly) reduction train for the same reasons discussed earlier in this thread and in other threads. Its supposed to help with braid to leader casting due to the presence of a braid to leader knot. I think there's some confusion in other threads about the impact of this 4 guide design vs the original KR concept 3 guide reduction train and how it negates the idea of the KR concept. After building this design, its clear to me that its still a much faster choke than the NGC design, it just softens the corner that occurs between the reduction train and the runners. My two cents based on finally using it in a build.

Here's the spacings if anyone is interested:

Based on the Shimano Vanford 2500 reel-
Butt to tip of reel axle at mid position: 13.5"
20H Stripper Position beyond spool axle tip: 19.5”
20H Stripper to 10H Second Reduction Guide: 9.3"
10H Second Reducer to 7M Third Reduction Guide: 6.2"
7M Third Reducer to 6L Choke Guide: 6.8"
Total Reduction Train Length: 22.3"
Choke Point Position beyond Spool Axle Tip: 41.8"
(5) KT5 running guides evenly spaced (5.03") from 6L to #5-2mm Tip top

Static Test Result: With 5 runners the line sticks to the blank well and I saw no major gaps. Could have gotten away with 4 runners I suppose, but I wanted to try 5 and maximize the power from the blank knowing Im trying to achieve something closer to the NRX 852.

Casting Test: I tested this on a Vanford 2500 with 8lb braid and 10lb fluoro leader. Casted very well and had no issues with the knot passing through the guides (as Id hoped). I was able to get the knot to wrap around the butt guide once, but this was due to a severely over powered cast and using a double uni with a longer than average fluoro tag end (I got in a hurry to try it!). Just trying to see if its possible, and it is. However, when I casted in a more normal (accurate) fashion, I was blown away with how quiet the line was with minimal noise and no sound of the knot passing through each guide like I see on some other rods I have purchased (even with the poorly executed connection knot). I would call this a success. Is it an optimal design? I have no idea as its my first stab at using this reduction train so I have no comparison to based an opinion on. Will I use this guide design again? Absolutely. Its better than any Rod I have purchased thus far.

The rod came out to weighing 3.1oz using the Fuji fighting butt, Fuji VSS seat/grip and KSKSS hidden thread hood and foregrip. All in cost (with some great holiday discounts at NFC) was ~$230.

I appreciate the feedback from everyone, and I hope this thread can help someone else trying to build a similar rod or dabbling in the KR Concept.

Brent



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2024 01:02PM by Brent Willey.

Brent, thank you for revisiting this thread and posting your thoughts on how your rod casts. I know I appreciate it. I also appreciate you describing your thought process for the placement of the high choke guide. I'm using the same guide train, on the same blank that you built, and while my guide spacing is slightly different from the numbers you posted, they aren't that much different. The biggest difference is in the spacing between the 7M and 6L.. But I currently have my 6L bullseyed with the other guides. Based on you talking about how the rod cast making a normal cast, I think I'm going to push my 6L out, like you did. While I'm not dealing with leader knots like you, I'll be using 10# fluorocarbon line, so it can only help.

I know you posting the information that you did has given me confidence that I'm not going to have to temporarily wrap the guides on so I could make some really hard test casts. That is definitely a good thing. I haven't set it up for static load to place the remaining guides, but based on the type of line path I like, I have a feeling I'll be using 6 running guides. 1 KB 5.5, and the rest KT 5's. I went with Fuji T2s for my guides. The Torzites were just a little too pricey for me on this particular build.

Anyhow .... thanks again for revisiting the thread. Very much appreciated.

If you want to know with absolute certainty how efficient your guide train setup is your best bet is to spool up with a line that's a little heavier than you plan on fishing with . With light supple lines it will be exceedingly difficult to determine any differences in how effective subtle tweaks to the guide train are but a heavier less supple line will reveal any issues immediately .

If you can get your guide train to work as well as possible with a slightly heavier line then you know it's tweaked to perfection and it's time to remove the heavier line and go back to the lighter line choice . That's the only surefire way that will eliminate all doubts that you got it right . Of course this is for the people that are exceptionally picky and still can't convince themselves that they have it as good as it can possibly get. I think most will be perfectly happy without going through those extra measures .

David- No problem. Glad you were able to get some use out of it. I just started a second build with the same design/components just changed the blank to an MB733. Looking forward to getting that one finished up.

Chris- Appreciate the feedback. I agree that this is a better “true test” of the guide train. I’ll try some different configurations and report back later.

Don’t forget the overall weight of the NRX+ 852s. You won’t have a chance to match or beat the weight of the NRX unless you stick with blanks that weigh 1.6oz or less. I haven’t found any MB blanks that fit that lightness.

Brent, I just finished a build on that blank. I built is as a spinning rod using a standard 3 reduction guide KR guide train. Fuji T2's 20H, 10H, 5.5M, KB 5.5, and 7 KT 5's plus tip top. XO skeleton reel seat / grip. It's my lightest build to date. It came in at 3.55 oz. I have a 2500 Vanford on it. It feels like it's going to be really good. We're supposed to have great weather this weekend, so I'll be headed out to a local lake on Sunday. I'm sure I'll try throwing something on it at some point during the day, if for no other reason than to see if it's as good for bottom contact baits, as I think it's going to be.

John - Do you know the weight of the 852S? I wasnt able to find it online. Interesting that they dont market that when most other rod manufacturers do.

David - Im almost exactly that same weight on my 733. Its almost done drying, but I stopped it to get a weight lol. Im at 100g or 3.52oz. Excited to try it this weekend. The problem with this rod building thing is finishing the rod and needing to buy a new Vanford to put on it! lol

I think the NRX+ 852S was around 3.5 oz. I like my NFC SJ703 better and have gotten that down to 2.56oz., but most have fallen between 2.7oz. to 2.8oz. There was a thread on the Tackletour forum where people chimed in with their store bought rod weights. Not many store rods out there were sub 4oz.