Hello all!
I understand this has been spoken about before but as I get ready to order multiple sets of guides I want to be sure to order the correct setups. I will be building multiple NFC X-Ray rods all from 6'8" to 7'3". I will be using Pflueger 30 size reels. They will be spooled with 10lb braid with 6-10lb flouro leaders or occasionally straight 4-6 mono. My end goals are to keep the rod light as I can, especially in the tip section if possible, and as sensitive as possible of course. But I also will be casing jigs as small as 1/16 to 3/16oz and casting distance becomes a factor.

Everywhere I look on this forum, everyone seems to point to a 20H - 10H - 5.5M reduction train. However, the GPS software spits out 16H - 8H - 5.5M for the builds described above. The GPS even prescribes the 16 train for 10-20 braid and 8-10 mono which is absolutely as heavy or even heavier than I will use.

Should I order the 20H or the 16H groups? I am looking at the Fuji KL-H Torzite, if that makes a difference. Another reason i want to get it right, they are not cheap....

Thank you!

Josh - relatively new builder here (just been seriously into it for last year or so). Anyhow, over that time have built 6 spinning rods with similar specs to what you describe above regarding line size and reel size and on all of those builds I used the KL16H, KL8H, KL5.5M reduction train. No issues. I'm sure the KL20H, KL10H, KL5.5M would also work just fine but not necessary in my opinion.

Light braid like you are planning to use is very forgiving. If your goal is to keep as light as possible the 16H and 8H will save you a tiny bit of weight. Your runners play a bigger role in your tip weight so keep those as small as possible to still pass your leader knots. I've went as small as 4.5mm runners (alconite inserts) and been OK. You could probably go even smaller with Torzite if you use an FG knot and your not going to be fishing when air/water temps are around freezing (ice build up on guides becomes a factor).

There are many others that frequent the site much more knowledgable and experienced than me so hopefully they will also chime in for you.

I agree with Kevin. A size16 based reduction train is more than sufficient for what you want. It is especially good when using light braid on a size 30/3000 or smaller reel. If you want to use a larger reel with heavier line, then a size 20 based reduction might give you a little more versatility.
Norm

Awesome! Thank you for the speedy replies! i will go with the 16h

Next question that i just started thinking about after reading Kevin's reply is running guide size. I was thinking 4.5KTs but now I am wondering, "how far can i push this?" do you think i could go to a 4 on the runners? I do fish in freezing temps but imo that doesnt really matter, if its below 32 guides freeze up even size 6 it seems. Definitely open to others opinion on this tho!

If i land on a 4 or 4.5 runner, would i want say a 5 choke guide, between the 5.5M and the 1st 4 or 4.5? or should my choke guide match the KTs? Maybe it doesnt really matter that much?

Again thank you for the Help!

You can certainly go directly from the KL5.5M to the same size running guides of your choice. No need to use a larger choke guide, but it does not hurt if you want a larger choke. As far as running guide size is concerned, it depended on your preference, leader knots used, and weather. Some people don’t like really small runners, others want to go as small as possible. When using10 pound braid with a light leader, most leader knots will pass through very small guides. However, some leader knots will give a tick when passing through the runners, so you need to tie a small and strong leader knot. I prefer the FG knot. Finally, freezing weather can play havoc with icing both line and guides, but as you mention icing can occur even with large guides. If you have problems with the runner size you select, it just becomes more expensive to replace them when using torzite guides.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2023 05:29PM by Norman Miller.

Josh - Norm has got your back above regarding running guides and I agree you want to go directly to whatever size ring as your choke after your KL5.5M. Don't forget to include a couple of the KB series (Belly guides) after your reduction train. The KB's have same ring as the KT's but have a longer leg. The reason for the longer leg is because that mid-section of guide train does get a bit more stress when flexed so the longer leg helps with that. For my builds, I have used the KL16H, KL8H, KL5.5M to 2 or 3 KB's (same size as runner) and then the remainder being the KT's.

Regarding your question about min size of runner that is up to you. 4's are pretty darn small. Since you are talking very expensive Titanium/Torzite guides I would want to physically see them and having your Line/Leader knot to gauge your comfort level. If you have a brick/mortar store close by go take a look or just order small quantity of the different sizes to decide. Also, some guys recommend upsizing the tip top by one size to help with your leader knot entering/exiting the guide train. For example, if using 4.5MM runners go with a 5MM ring on your tip top. I've tried both ways and honestly can't tell a difference but the slightly larger tip ring makes sense.

Also, one final comment: You are really splitting hairs on weight saving when you are considering 4mm vs 4.5mm vs 5mm runners. Questionable whether you would be able to tell the difference...? What I'm saying is having that 4mm runner worth it if only takes a small amount of ice/gunk buildup before it causes you issues? If you go all in on 4mm and don't like them pretty costly to swap out to larger size. Anyhow, all things to consider. Enjoy your building...

Fuji used the size runners they do because in their casting tests going smaller according to them didn't improve performance, they didn't say it hindered it either and they were using a stiff 8 lb. fluorocarbon to boot. They were not concerned with weight like you are. I've passed your line and leader through 3 mm guides without issue, but I also wasn't throwing your minimum weight lures, frankly if I was worried about throwing light weights, I wouldn't sacrifice results with a knot passing through my guides. 10 lb. braid breaks in the 16 to 18 lb. range, I think you may be able to go lighter to help your casting range.

The reduction guides, whether 20-10-5.5 or 16-8-5.5 will not make a significant difference with what you plan. I like 20-10-5.5 because it's more versatile, and I don't think the weight difference that far back on the blank makes a difference in anything. Based on my work on some blanks, especially fast or Xfast actions, one can put SS reduction guides on the rod and titanium runners and there will be no decrease in the recovery from deflection speed. Save the money on the reduction guides.

My personal preference unless an ultra light: 20-10-5.5M , two KB4's , then KT4's to the tip. An Arowana titanium tiptop will be measurably faster in recovery speed than a SS tiptop.

Spencer - I agree with you on the lighter line, and 90% of the time the 3/16oz and lighter will be thrown on 6braid to 4 or 6 flouro or straight 4 or 6 mono. However once and a while i will grab a 10lb braid reel and add in a 6lb leader to throw an 1/8oz jig. simpler than re-spooling bc i just didnt grab the right setup or whatever the situation is. Essentially just wanted to make sure that the 16H train will be enough to handle up to 10lb braid and 6lb mono coming off a 30 size reel, which it sounds like it it. As far as Runner size i apprecate your insight with the 3mm, I think ill be comfortable going with a 4 myself

Norm - thank you for all the expertise! i will definitely go with the 16H reduction.

The first running guide IS the choke guide so that part is taken care of once you decide what size running guides you will be using.

I’ve built multiple similar rods with Torzite trains anchored with 16 and 20 guides. I’ve stopped at 4.5 runners simply for the reason that they work and can’t add up to much more weight than 4.0’s. I’m hesitant to go further because at some point it is spending Torzite money and building time to get a rod that doesn’t pass Alberto knots as well.

The only time I’ve thought the 20’s casted farther than the 16’s was with some ratty braid that didn’t live up to its marketing hype. I find the 16’s co-mingle less with other rods on the deck or in group holders. Ten baitcasters can stay untangled, but add one spinning rod and it’s stuck endlessly in a couple of others. The bigger the first guide, the more extroverted the rod becomes.

I struggled with deciding between the 20-10 vs 16-8. I favor (but not by much) the 20-10 after doing a handful of builds on ML - M rods all using 2500 reel and 8-10 lb braid. I don't think there's a wrong choice here though.

I built an MHX TR 842-3 with a 16 red. train and 4.5 runners that casts 92 ft. with 8 lb. mono. 1/4 oz . 2500 reel.

I went with the 16-8-5.5 as recommended by the KR calculator and haven’t looked back (2500 reels). I think you see a lot of store rods with 20’s because they want to accommodate more reel sizes and be more “universal”. With braid, I don’t think spool diameters need to be so big anymore.

John Santos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With braid, I
> don’t think spool diameters need to be so big
> anymore.

I do wonder about this as I have an FI version of the Stradic 1000 that casts further with Nanofil than any other spinning reel and line combination I’ve ever tried. It defies conventional wisdom, but does the lack of coil memory change things this much?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2023 11:41PM by Kendall Cikanek.

For your build I’d use the high belly guide layout (16H, 8H, 6M, 5.5M) with 4.5 runners to accommodate casting those light lures. The last spinning rod I built using the high belly guide out casts my 3 reduction guide setup with the same size runners. The rods I compared used the 25H, 12H, 7L (add a 8M for the high belly guide train) with size 6 runners. 20lbs braid and 20lbs leader with the same 3000 size reels.

Kendall, I think you found the Holy Grail. If you're close to the perfect setup the guides don't have to do much work in the "loop taming" department . I have others praise Nano fil.

Michael’s guide train is the same as I now use on similar rods, except I add a couple of more runners.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2023 11:43PM by Kendall Cikanek.

Thanks Lynn, my one caveat with Nanofil is that despite its nice strength, it is low in shock resistance. It’s not friendly to violent hook sets and other types of fast, high impacts.

A few years ago when most of us were mystified by the KR Concept I had a phone conversation with Jim Ising. One of my concerns was stripper guide size on a spinning rod. For what it's worth, he told me "I know it says16, but use a 20". When you are talking about how many runners you need, I trust you are static tensioning your rod. Even with the given formula, you might need to add a couple to get the line to look right under load.