I'd appreciate if anyone can share their experience using Fuji T-KTTG 4 or 4.5s on a 4wt fly rod?
I have a Sexyloop HT4 (fast action, powerful 9' blank) that I built with REC RSF guides. Love the rod but not a fan of the guides.
I'd like to rebuild it with ceramics but wish to keep the weight penalty to a minimum......albeit at the expense of internal diameter.
I'm thinking a T-LKWTG 10 collector, a T-KTTG 6, then 8-9 T-KTTG 4's, and a T-KGTT 4 or 4.5 tip.
If you have done something like this how well did it work? What did you find to be the downsides?
Thanks
G

Only you will know how large your knots on the fly line are, the blank, the reel, nothing matters except the fly lines you will be using and the knots involved.

A 4.5 ceramic will have an opening that is somewhat less than 4.5mm. The size is measured on the inside of the metal frame. While a 4.5 might pass the line you may find that if you need to pull any sort of leader or loop through the guides that 4.5 may tend to be a tad small. I doubt I'd go less than a #6.

...........

I did a 9' 3wt with all ceramics and it came out really nice, built on a MHX 4PC Fly blank.. Cast like a dream and can consistently hit 80' with it, not that you would need to. Made one the same way for my brother also. The guide set up was; KW 10 SS Alconite stripper,

L frame SS Alconite 7 mm, and 10-L frame SS Alconite 5 mm running train (12 guides total) and a 6 mm Alconite tip top. The total weight is 3.25 oz. You could set up a 4wt the exact same way. Very fun to cast.

[www.rodbuilding.org]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2023 02:42PM by Lance Schreckenbach.

George,
The "mistake" you made was not not using ceramics - but using REC RSF's. Yu should have used the REC RSFX which has a larger diameter wire.
Using ceramics on ANY fly rod will softern it. On a 4tw - you are killing it.
Give me one advantage you will get with ceramics.

"Smoother" casting - nope There is hardly any friction outgoing.
"Smoother reeling in a fish" - again - Nope. The tip where you will be placing the ceramic runners flexsx to the fish. Hardly any frinctin there.

I now use 3 ceramics after the Stripper to take the strain when fighting the fish. But never runners.
Herb

Ditto, on Herb's comment.

Really tough to beat the overall success of a fly rod sing standard wire guides.

Be safe

Thanks guys, but let's not change into a ceramic hate thread.

I've got a lot of experience with both wire and ceramic and know I can build rods that have similar (or very close) tip weight to most wire builds but cast and fish more nicely for me.
I'm not using this rod to throw dry flies 20-40'. It may never make a roll cast other than to pick up line.
It sees saltwater use. Lots of blind casting for distance. The ability to extend line into wind on a back cast and optimize forward haul and resultant line speed are priorities. I find that ceramics do this much better than wire....and this is very evident as line weights diminish.
And, no, weight is not a problem provided one is willing to sacrifice I.D. to avoid it.
And, yes, sacrificing I.D. presents its own problems.
I know I can deal with those problems at 5.5 and above. With a T-KTTG 4 I'm much less certain although I think I recall others using them a few years back on this forum (Lance?).
A T-KTTG has an I.D. of 2.44mm. That is pretty small (it is also lighter than a typical larger RSFX). Before spending $150 and tearing down a perfectly good build I'm looking for the experience of someone who has tried this.

My question then is a pretty simple one.
Has anyone built a 4wt rod using size 4 or 4.5 torzites and, if so, what did you think of it?
George



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2023 09:08AM by George Christman.

I used single foot Titanium frame sic ceramic in past to cut weight and give me thin wall max opening and double foot stripper

I don't perceive this as people hating on ceramics, but rather a thread on opinion or advice on guide differences and their affect, if any, on performance.

From an objective POV, physics would say the harder and/or smoother the guide (less friction), the more efficiently or better the line will slide through the guide. How much better, and if that is perceptible to the angler, is the major question. I would venture to think that in a 4 wt. fly rod, the performance delta between a quality metal running guide (call it wire) and a guide with a ceramic insert is going to be so minimal that the angler likely will not notice the difference. And the ceramic material needs to be sufficiently polished for it to arguably be any smoother than a well made wire guide.

The placement, guide weight and weight of the wraps will likely be more of a performance factor than the guide's material composition. Further, if one views distance as a key factor in their casting, I would first contend they need to maintain a clean and appropriately dressed line, as that will make a very perceptible difference, and often a very overlooked or neglected aspect of fly fishing, as is having the proper match of line to rod. In addition, I fly fish multiple times weekly and, for my 4-weight rod, distance is typically not a key factor in trout fishing for me.

Casting efficiency and, particularly casting distance, also is very much dependent on one's skill in that area. The casting skill factor will far outweigh any difference in guide types.

Guide choice can be important between fresh and salt water due to the corrosive nature of the latter. I'm not aware of how many people are fishing 4-wt rods in salt, but would think it not many.

For the OP, I would contend the difference in his choice between the type of high-quality guides he chooses will mostly be an aesthetic one, so go with what you like.

In regard to guide weight, I am in the less is more category, especially in fly rods that are 6-wt or below. Let the rod blank do the talking, as designed by the designer, rather than affecting its performance with heavy guides or overly epoxied wraps.

I have wrapped numerous high-performance fly rods in the 4-6 wt range that have been equipped with either high-quality single foot or traditional double foot snake guides, and I can't say I notice a significant difference. I have used PAC Bay and REC single foot and double foot, and my rods cast just fine, in close and at distance. The composition of REC guides can result in a slight harmonic from the line zipping through the guides, especially if the line has any type of texture.

A most interesting blog post on guides is by Akos, the brilliant designer of Stickman Rods, who has done all kinds of testing on guides, their performance, weight and how they wear. If he observed or found that ceramic insert guides were a performance benefit, I would think he would be using them. Of course that is one rod design expert's opinion. He is a total rod geek and would answer a question if you emailed him. [www.stickmanrods.com]

On a final note, what we think we perceive in a rod or guide's performance can greatly be influenced by inherent human bias. As an example, in addition to making fly rods as a hobby, I also make golf clubs. For decades a segment of golfers have contended that "forged" iron heads, due to being made from softer steel required for forging, have a better feel than clubs that are made from "cast" steel. A massive amount of marketing and millions of dollars in he sales of forged irons hinges on this contention. Numerous blind studies have been done with golfers hitting forged and cast clubs. Test data have time and again demonstrated golfers could not statistically determine the difference between forged or cast. Yet people contend a forged club when hit well feels just like "butter." Ironically, feel in golf is perceived as most important in wedges. The most venerated and time honored wedges in golf, Vokey by Titleist, designed by Tom Vokey, are made from cast steel not forged, are used extensively by PGA players and amateurs alike, and have won more majors and other tournaments than any other wedges.

A well made guide is a well made guide. Size it and place it correctly. If you like one type over another, go for it. That is what choice and customization in rod building is all about.

I knew this discussion would go on and on. Many interesting points were made and we could certainly talk about it for hours.

It comes down to all the possible ways to justify a decision.

In you very specific approach, and only considering guide selection, I'd try to find out what the long distance casting champions are using and would their material selection apply to the type of water you fish AND how these guides would handle the type of fish you're getting. How serious you are about fishing and how often do you get out there.
If you start listening to every single opinion out there you'll never manage to order anything. Once you order something there will be 5 new forum posts that will make you second guess yourself after spending 300$ trying to buy in bulk on guides you were convinced were the ideal ones.

{"Before spending $150 and tearing down a perfectly good build I'm looking for the experience of someone who has tried this."}
Well that's going back to the ways you want to justify your decision...

If you decide to go with a test order of T-KTTG, what size and how many do you need? I'll have a look in my inventory to see if I have any spare.

My take on using ceramics of fly rods.....
When I first started building fly rods, I thought that wire guides were for SILLY old CONSERVATIVE farts who wore tweed jackets and dorky hats while trout fishing, so I used ceramics from stripper to tip. - BAD IDEA! TOO HEAVY! (and too small Internal diameter)
So, I then used Minima guides from stripper to tip - BAD IDEA! STILL TOO HEAVY! (but better internal diameter)
Now I use...
1 wt to 4 wt rods - Ceramic or Minima stripper and the rest wire guides.
5 wt to 8 wt rods - Ceramic or Minima stripper and then ceramic or Minima 2nd guide followed by wire guides.
9 wt and up - ? I don't really build fly rods that heavy.

In regards to the original post, what size ceramics to use on a 4 wt.....my advice....use a size 10 ceramic (or Minima) stripper and the rest wire.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2023 12:26AM by David McDonough.

Don't want to confuse. Will just say for clarity sake:

Per directly above post, whatever guides you choose, a 4 wt is best with stripper of size 10.

Per Herb's comments, I also prefer the REC RSFX over the RSF due to size and it being a bit more stout. And, as stated, but always worth repeating, the inner size of the guide need only be large enough to ensure the leader to line and line to backing connections you use are large enough to pass through smoothly and easily. Total PITA if they hang up.

Per Tom's most excellent observation, if the size of the ceramics you reference are measured to the inside of the metal frame, then the ceramic insert will decrease that diameter in a measurable way. This Fuji chart can show the difference in diameter that an insert can make: [www.guidesnblanks.com]

So in my opinion you would not want to go any narrower on a 4 wt than the equivalent of the inside diameter of a 1/0 wire guide, which on average has an inner diameter of 4.8 mm. So for ceramic that would mean going no smaller than a 5.5 or 6. [raspberryfisher.wordpress.com]

If you fish in cold weather, single foot or a ceramic type guide will freeze more quickly than a two footed snake guide.

I see no functional advantage in going small on fly guides. There are disadvantages in going too small, as has been pointed out.

There is a functional advantage in going light, and that is faster response from deflection (and a crisper feel.) As long as the guides are strong enough, and I've never seen a wire guide that wasn't, there is no functional disadvantage in going light.

A lot of good information, do what ever you want but the range of ceramic guide sizes I have use is from 5mm to 7mm up to a 10wt. If the guide ring is too small it will slow down the line, especially in colder water. Ceramic guides do add weight to the blank and because it is the thinnest lightest area of the blank; the tip section weight will be noticed and it will affect the recovery of the blank from back cast to forward. Modern blanks (carbon fiber) are stiffer than what we previously used back 20 years ago so it does make up for some of the recovery speed but it is still lost. Double foot snake guides are the lightest guide you can use but can be a pain in the arse because you have to wrap two feet. This is very debatable but this is my experience: you really need to use more single foot guides to get the performance of less double foot snake guides. There is a different slippery feel and sound to single foot ceramics that can be pleasing. I am of the group that does not take apart a working rod to change out guides that are performing as they should. Just build a new one.

I personally find dismantling an existing rod to be a total PITA and, if the existing rod is working but is not appointed the way you desire, I concur with above from Lance, and I would just build a new rod. I really hate trying to get all the guide epoxy off.

Yup, David. One can never have too many rods. Sort of like women's shoes and purses.

Yup, Mick, the more the merrier. In life my maxims are "less is more" and "when in doubt throw it out" or "go without." That clearly does not apply to fly rods, nor for my spouse does it include shoes, handbags or attire.

How did your Eternity2 rods come out?

As we once discussed, I have an Eternity2 9 foot 6 wt. It was a continual enigma as I could not find a line that really matched well with it. Despite all the rave reviews of E2, I was a bit flummoxed and not so pleased with the rod.

Of all things a guy sold me a new old stock Rio Avid Trout WF6 line, the older yellow version not the new one. The rod casts like a dream with the Rio, which I believe is 178 grains in the head and has a 7/7/18/6 taper, thus a 38' head, and 52' of running line. Dandy match for a 6-wt E2. But Rio has reformulated the Avid Trout line and today has a Gold and Grand version with a taper that copies those lines. So I will need to find a similar weighted and tapered line in the future to match the Avid Trout.

Warm weather for a few days wafted into Colorado earlier this week and I had the E2 out on the S. Platte on Dec. 6 and got a half dozen nice trout to hand. The casting with the Avid Trout was quite, quite nice, regardless of fly type. The old school Avid Trout on the E2 casts much better than a Rio Gold, SA Textured Trout, or an SA MPX. And I got it for $30. Go figure.