Hi, my name is panagiotis and I am from Greece. I did not know how to find a help and while googling I found this forum. At first, sorry forry my not so good English.
I have, for a few years, a shimano dialuna s100mh 2018 which is supposed to follow the kr concept from the box. I really like its blank so I am thinking for an upgrade to its guides. I want to use fuji titanium torzite and already have a 25h trvtg and a 16h trvtg. My reel it’s the shimano excense 4000mg. I use p.e 1.5 ygk, and for leader mostly fluorocarbon 25lb for barracudas and medium pelagic. I throw jigs up to 60gr and plugs from 15-40gr.
I have spent hours reading for the kr concept but I am a little bit confused about the chokes, the rapid chock, the stripper’s distance from the reel etc.
The rod now it has 7 stainless steel sic guides plus a tip as follow 30,16,12,8,3x7,+7 tip. My first thinking was the following
Trvtg 25h
Trvtg 16h
Tkltg 12
Tkttg 10
Tkttg 7(x6 or x7) plus a 7 tip.
But I don’t know if a have to cancel one of the 2 last reductions guides in order to achieve the rapid chocking (and if yes which one) or the 7’ running guides are too big for my job and need 6’. Also the strippers distance is a question.
Looking the net, I have seen the mythos sonio 100m RG which have a similar concept to that I like (of course with not double footed running guides and probably not 15 overall) and its quite new. Is really this concept so good as they say?
Any help about sizes, distances and kr concept would be really helpful. Thank in advanced and sorry for my big message.

Your English is better than most or our Greek, so good for you!. I never use more than three reduction guides, and go right by the software at : [anglersresource.net]

I don't even test cast any more. Running guides should be placed by doing a stress test, and Fuji's stress test is at [anglersresource.net]

Run the software and see what it says, but it will likely recommend 25-12-5.5M. (maybe larger on the last one if you go with size 7 runners, but I would go no bigger than 5.5 for the runners. I use a Rainshadow 7 foot spin rod for cudas and it has 20-10-5,5m with size 4 runners, and it works well) All the runners should be the same size. The stress test may be run with any guides and that can tell you the number to buy if you don't already have them. I often use 9 guides + tiptop on a 7 foot rod.

You probably don't need to go as big as 25, but if you have one it certainly will work. I would try 25-12-5.5 with 5.5 runners.

go right by the software at
> :
> [anglersresource.net]
> tware/
I have done it and it shows me 21.5 for the stripper guide. It looks to me that it is too close to the reel. Fuji’s charts show 31.5 for the stripper ( from reel base) for rods over 9ft.
Thank you both for the answers. As I can understand you recommend 3 reduction guides and smaller running guides, also not to use my 16h trvtg? What do you think for
25hrvtg
16hrvtg
12tkltg or 10tkttg
5.5/6 running guides?
I forgot to mention that my fist goal is casting distance. I mean I don’t mind to loose some sensitivity in order to gain a few meters casting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2023 12:30PM by panagiotis zannetos.

If you're using p.e 1.5 ygk on the excense 4000mg forget about the 16 size guide completely . You don't even need a 25 mm guide to start the reduction train, a size 20 mm is plenty large enough but if you prefer a 25 mm size that's fine also but you should drop the 16mm and go down to what Michael suggested which is a size 25 or 20 to a 12 or even 10 then to a 5.5 or 5 choke to size 5.5 or 5 running guides .


I looked at the specs on your specific reel and line choice and there is no need whatsoever for a size 16 reduction guide .



The rod has a 30,16,12,8,3x7,+7 tip which is in no way shape or form a KR concept layout , that's a NGC layout .

My first thinking was the following
Trvtg 25h
Trvtg 16h
Tkltg 12
Tkttg 10

Tkttg 7(x6 or x7) plus a 7 tip.


The above choices do not achieve anything close to a true KR Concept rod because those guide choice do not rapidly choke the line down . With that specific reel and line the above listed guides are a poor choice , there are simply too many guides that are too close in diameter to each other to be beneficial with that specific line and reel choice .

The above guide choices would be something to use if you were using much heavier line or a different type of line altogether but not with p.e 1.5 ygk.

I think I understand what you say. It seems logical. What about the position of the first reduction guide? 21.5 looks ok? Now it is positioned quite higher from the reel.

Like the earlier New Guide Concept, there is a difference between using the guides and using the guides and the actual concept they were designed for. On production rods they have no idea what reel you are going to put on the rod, if you used a 5000 and mono, are a 6000 and heavier braid they need to have designed for it. If there was any chance you may use monofilament or fluorocarbon in the future the 25 may not be a bad idea to start with.

panagiotis zannetos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think I understand what you say. It seems
> logical. What about the position of the first
> reduction guide? 21.5 looks ok? Now it is
> positioned quite higher from the reel.




Most people who are not familiar with the KR concept look at it like " That won't work , the first reduction guide is too close to the reel or the guide rings are just too small " until they try it out for themselves . I have a 10'6" light surf rod that I setup using the KR concept guides and it performs incredibly well .

The spinning reel I use with that surf rod has a much much larger spool diameter than your particular spinning reel but since I spool up with a braid which has a diameter similar to your p.e 1.5 ygk it works better than any other setup I've ever tried .


It all comes down to the line type and size , it determines pretty much everything with spinning setups . What you need to do is follow what the KR system recommends and go try it , I have found just like so many others that Fuji's software for this system is extremely accurate . Just about every experienced angler doubted the KR concept system UNTIL they tried it for themselves . Your rod being 10 feet in length has absolutely nothing to do with the KR concept reduction guide recommendations , the only thing a longer rod will require is more running guides, how many running guides you will need should be based on what the static tests show not what the Fuji software says you need because the software has no idea how stiff or soft a blank is .

If you want to use guides other than the 20-10-5.5M that the software yields then I suggest you put the first one at 19 or 20 inches from the reel face, then arrange the others (like if you want to try the 25-12-5.5 or something close to the 5.5) then locate the second, third, and first running guide so that when you look down the guide train from the butt you see a "bullseye." With the first guide being the first ring, the second guide being the second, the third the third, etc. This gives the straightest line path through the guides. It should look like a target with concentric rings. Fuji says the choke guide can go out just a little from the perfect bullseye location. After that arrange the runners with the stress test. And test cast to see if if does what you want.

The location of the reduction guides along the rod may or may not be progressive (meaning each guide as you go out getting progressively closer together ), but that does not matter unless their heights are so off from what they should be for KR arrangement that some really screwy spacing happens. With the software, if I remember right, the 16-8-5.5 is not progressive and it works just fine.

There are a number of KR guide options for your 10’ surf rod using a 4000 reel with 30 lb (PE 1.5 ygk) braid for casting lures up to 2 oz (60 gm).
Since you already have the RV25H, there is no sense in not using it as your butt guide. So, The guides you listed will work fine, but probably a little overkill for what you want to do, but they will work. Fuji does recommend your guide selection as one of the various options for a10’ sea bass rod. For your listed guides, the RV25H, RV16H, and KL12 would be your reduction train guides, and the KT10 would be your choke guide. The size 7 or 6 KT guides are the remaining running guides. A lighter option is a RV25H, KL12H, KL8M for the reduction train, a KL7L as the choke guide, and KKB/KT 7 or 6 running guides. An even lighter option is using KL25H, KL12H, KL8M (or KL7M) for the reduction train, a KL7L (or KL6L) as the choke guide, and KT/KB 7, 6 or 5.5 runners. I would start by placing butt guide somewhere between 22” to 28” (56 cm to 71 cm) in front of the reel spool, and the choke guide about 30” to 33” (76 cm to 84 cm) in front of the butt guide. The other two reduction guides are placed progressively between the butt guide and choke guides, and the remaining runners are placed progressively between the choke guide and the tip top. After securing the guides to the blank do a two line static test to fine tune the guide placement.
PS - There is a lot of flexibility in set up a guide train, so don’t be afraid to move guides in or out to get the spacing you like.
Norm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2023 07:24PM by Norman Miller.

Greetings to you in your beautiful and historic country. The 21 1/2” distance is absolutely fine. The KR concept trains I’ve built have been in the 20 1/2 to 21 1/2 range. I tape them on at software suggested positions and then line-up on a straight edge. I usually nudge one guide less than a 1/4 inch to get perfect alignment. The numbers, straight edge, and casting performance all agree. Thus, I have learned to just do this without hesitance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2023 01:03AM by Kendall Cikanek.

chris c nash Wrote:

> Most people who are not familiar with the KR
> concept look at it like " That won't work , the
> first reduction guide is too close to the reel or
> the guide rings are just too small " until they
> try it out for themselves . I have a 10'6" light
> surf rod that I setup using the KR concept guides
> and it performs incredibly well .
>

Its exactly as you say. it looks to strange to me and also a little bit different from what i have read until know and i will explain it above. thank you so much for your targeted suggestions.

Norman Miller Wrote:
k. Fuji does recommend your guide
> selection as one of the various options for a10’
> sea bass rod. For your listed guides, the RV25H,
> RV16H, and KL12 would be your reduction train
> guides, and the KT10 would be your choke guide.
> The size 7 or 6 KT guides are the remaining
> running guides.

thank you Norm. this is one of the projects i have seen and its the reason i bought the 25hrvtg and the 16hrvtg some time ago when i found them on sales. its fuji's recommendation and its exactly for my rod (specs). i don't know how to upload photo so i give the site
[issuu.com]
pg14-15 it shows that this set up is for braid up to 30lb.

[www.fujitackle.eu]
pg2 exactly same concept to frame sizes for braid 1.5-2


A lighter option is a RV25H,
> KL12H, KL8M for the reduction train, a KL7L as the
> choke guide, and KKB/KT 7 or 6 running guides. An
> even lighter option is using KL25H, KL12H, KL8M
> (or KL7M) for the reduction train, a KL7L (or
> KL6L) as the choke guide, and KT/KB 7, 6 or 5.5
> runners.
in all your thoughts you mention 3 reduction guides, a chock guide (that fuji call also tall belly guide) and the running guides, which is what i have read from fuji. But there are are many specialists who say to remove the last reduction guide and make it the same as the running guides. For example for your fist option
RV25H, KL12H, KL8M, running guides. For my selection it would be RV25H, RV16H, KL12, KT6,6,6,6,6,6,6, TIP6.
Is it a better choice?


I would start by placing butt guide
> somewhere between 22” to 28” (56 cm to 71 cm)
> in front of the reel spool, and the choke guide
> about 30” to 33” (76 cm to 84 cm) in front of
> the butt guide. The other two reduction guides are
> placed progressively between the butt guide and
> choke guides, and the remaining runners are placed
> progressively between the choke guide and the tip
> top. After securing the guides to the blank do a
> two line static test to fine tune the guide
> placement.

I believe i have totally understood how to do with the middle reduction guides (which are 2 or 1 it depends on you put 3 or 4) and the running guides with the static load test.
My problem here is the first guide (stripper). for example see the next chart
[merricktackle.com]
it shows for rods more than 8ft to be positioned 31,4 from the reel base which is quite higher from what gps shows. I have seen this kind of distances in many reviews.

> PS - There is a lot of flexibility in set up a
> guide train, so don’t be afraid to move guides
> in or out to get the spacing you like.
> Norm

its good to hear that i have some space and there is nothing better than testing, so you can see what its best for you, Unfortunately here in Greece i can find only the t-kttg in torzite. i have to order it from above and the shipping cost is usually more than 18 euros for one or more guides. i mean that its not easy to buy some guides and make tests. Every extra guide later its at high cost and a lot of losted time. Of course you can make tests with the guide distances.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2023 06:22AM by panagiotis zannetos.

Above are the recommended guides you should use for your purpose. You can use size 7 runners and tip-top if you want to.

This is the info to find guide placement for you particular reel.

[www.guidesnblanks.com]

The total amount of guides would be 11 plus the tip-top for a 10’ rod. It is determined by the length +1.

As I mentioned, there is a lot of flexibility in setting up a guide train. For rods over 8’, Fuji suggests using a “high belly guide” as the “choke guide” since it may help with performance. However, you can certainly replace this high belly guide with a running guide, it’s up to you. As far as butt guide position, it depends a lot on the reel size. For example, the larger the reel the further out a butt guide of a given height is moved. Conversely, the larger the reel the higher the butt guide needs to be if kept at the same location. So, the reel size is important in both determining butt guide size and position. It should also be mentioned that for a given reel once you find the proper distance from the reel spool to a given butt guide height, there is no reason to change that distance no matter the length of the rod. Some will move the butt guide further out with longer rod just to reduce the overall number of guides needed. In general, longer rods usually use larger reels which require a larger butt guide placed further away from the reel.. In your case, a size 4000 reel is relatively small for use on a surf rod, thus the butt guide can be smaller and closer to the reel.

To help me visualize my guide train placement, I do this very simple test. Once you tentatively have all the guides secured in place, run your line from the reel through all the guides, and then tie on a light weight to the end of the line and let it hang in place. With the rod held horizontal, put the line against the bottom of the spool. What you want to see is a straight line from the bottom of the spool to the choke guide, and then another straight line from the choke guide to the tip top with the line touching the bottom of each guide. This line path looks very similar to the line paths you see in the various KR guide diagrams. If you see a sharp angle entering into the butt guide, then move the butt guide further out or use a higher guide. Of course, you would need to adjust the rest of the guide train accordingly. When happy with guide placement, test cast.
The KR GPS does give you a very good starting point. It’s really not that difficult to get a very good looking and well performing guide train. Hope this helps.
Norm

Here are some things to keep in mind . If the goal from Panagiotis first post was to turn his rod which came standard with guide sizes 30,16,12,8,3x7,+7 tip into a true rapid choke KR concept rod . Moving to a 25 instead of the 30 and then using a 16,12,10,and 7's on out changes very very little from his initial setup of 30, 16,12 ,8 and 7's .

His braid of choice while listed as a 30 pound braid has a diameter of braids UNDER 20 pounds and much thinner than most 30 pound braids that Americans are familiar with . That alone tells me his build would be much more beneficial with a size 25 then dropping down to a 12 and then a choice of a choker and running guide sizes in the same diameter because braids of this type DO NOT need in any way shape or form a gradual reduction in guide sizes so avoid the 16 to a 12 to a 7 to a 5 etc... choose one ring size after the 12 for the choke and running guides . Fuji's recommendations are just that, recommendations , Fuji is in business to sell as many guide frames sizes as possible not to persuade you otherwise .

Fuji may call the RV25 , RV16 , 12M , 10M etc... a legit KR concept layout but in reality it's much closer to a NGC type build than a rapid choke KR build . The line choice and diameter determines EVERYTHING not the listed pound strength .


Now just speaking about myself I would not use a certain guide size just because I bought them and it was expensive if I didn't think that guide size was the best possible choice for my build . I have very expensive RV guide frames with torzite rings of varying sizes that were VERY pricey sitting in a drawer , I'm not very happy about that but I'll only use them if they turn out to be the best possible choice for a particular build not because I have them sitting around . Again that's just me personally others may think very differently .


If Panagiotis wants to go with a RV25 , RV16 etc ... because he has them on hand it will work perfectly fine, the biggest benefit over his existing layout will be the difference in weight since he said the 30,16,12,8 and 7's that are on his current rod have stainless steel frames which will be considerable heavier than the titanium RV's but if he thinks just a change in frame design and using a 25 instead of a 30 mm for the first reduction guide then using the same sizes on down 16, 12 , 8 , 7 etc,,,will turn his rod into a better performer he's in for a disappointment . If you want a true KR rapid choke layout go with a 25 to a 12 instead of a 25 to a 16 . The goal is to use guide frames and ring sizes that have the biggest impact on changing line direction while using the FEWEST amount of guides possible to achieve that goal . How do you do that ? You must know your line characteristics inside and out that's how .

In regard to spinning , EVERYTHING comes down to the type size and characteristics of the line .


If Panagiotis was using a much larger diameter braid I would say go with the RV25 - RV16 to a 10M on down because larger diameter lines can not be choked down as quickly as much thinner braids .


FWIW : If using an M series guide, (12M or 10M) use one or the other not both together .

thank you so much. i believe i have a more clear picture what i have to try to do.

Michael i haven't seen this guide, its quite helpful.

Norman i have now a more clear picture how to put the stripper and make tests with it.

Chris, as i can understand you are a f?n of the rapid choke concept and you believe that less reduction guides (for "thin" braids like japanese PE 1.5) give a better casting result. You have tried it, so i certainly i give also a try. The fact that i have 2 guides already it doesn't mean that i have to use them anyway, at any cost.

I am thinking of buying the kl12 (which is something like medium with 19.7mm height), the 10 kttg (its supposed to be low profile with 14.5mm height), 6 or 7 kttg6 (height 8.2) and a 6 tip top and try the next concepts depending and on the strippers final position.

(1)
RV25H (55.9 height)
RV16H (36.2)
KL12 (19.7)
KT 10 (14.5)
KT6 (8.2) X6
TIP 6

(2)
RV25H (55.9 height)
RV16H (36.2)
KL12 (19.7)
KT6 (8.2) X7
TIP 6

(3)
RV25H (55.9 height)
RV16H (36.2)
KT 10 (14.5)
KT6 (8.2) X7
TIP 6

(4)
RV25H (55.9 height)
KL12 (19.7)
KT 10 (14.5)
KT6 (8.2) X7
TIP 6

(5)
RV25H (55.9 height)
KL12 (19.7)
KT6 (8.2) X8
TIP 6

for the last 2 concepts i will probably need better the kl12H (31.8 height). i decided that running guides 6 are probably better than 7. if i have the chance i would buy also the KL8M (20.8 height) or the KL7L (13, 2 height as tall belly guide) to have more options.

Any thoughts about these? which one do you believe its a better choice (at least to try it or not) or any other ideas? kt6 or kt7 running guides?
thank you guys, already you offered me more knowledge than the net gave me the last past weeks.

Here are a couple of Anglers Resource publications that may help concerning KR guide groupings

[anglersresource.net]

[anglersresource.net].

A couple of suggestions for the your guide train. The first one doesn’t use a high belly guide the second does. Both should work with siz 6 runners.
RV25H (55.9), KL12H (31.9), KL7M (19.4) for the reduction train followed by KT6 runners.
RV 25H, KL12H, KL7M, and KL6L (12.2) as high belly/Choke guides, followed by KT6 runners.
Norm