Hey all, I was wondering if anyone has built an 808 NEO casting rod and if so, how many guides, their size and their placement that you used.. I am in the middle of 2 line static testing and it is driving me crazy. I have seemingly way to many guides and I still can't keep the line from dropping below the blank. Is that something I am going to have to live with or has someone successfully figured it out? Thanks in advance.

Spiral wrap it and don’t worry about the line dropping below the blank

You have to have some place to start, what length rear grip are you going to use, this sets the distance for the reel and therefore gives us a decent idea of where the first guide from the reel is going to be, and that seta the distance you most work out for spacing guides. I would not use the same spacing for a 12 inch rear grip and a 15.25 inch rear grip.

From the butt to the front of the fore grip is 18". The problem I am having is the design of the blank with a very soft 2 foot tip section, a moderate center section and the rest of the blank being quite stiff. It is similar to any other build until you start to get towards the tip. Then it is so flexible that you almost need a guide every 3-4 inches to keep from dropping below the edge of the blank.. I planned on a 12-10-8-7 reduction then the running guides were six 6's.but I can't make it work.

The way you describe your grip length could be a long rear grip and a button foregrip or hidden thread hood, of a short rear grip and long foregrip like some salt rods, both would total 18 inches, just mentioning rear grip length best anchors the reel's position so you can set the rest. I would start with a 5 inch first guide space from the tip with that size blank tip, it isn't going the bend there anyway in use and it sets the back guides up for best spacing later.

I'm building it for big swimbaits. It has a winn 4" rear grip and a 1.75 fore grip. This rod will very likely have some bend in first 5 inches...the tip is VERY soft. That is actually where I'm having the most problem. I am about 6" from the tip and the line is going under the blank.because of the soft tip. Look at it on NFC's site and they have a picture that will show you what I'm talking about.

Glen,

My take is to go one of two ways:

1.) Spiral Wrap (which is an excellent and stable design especially for larger rigs, baits, and fish). It will put the line below the blank where it wants to go anyway. You will need fewer running guides.

2.) With a very soft and bendy tip on a conventional set up, the guides near the tip are going to have to be close together to keep the line above the blank. I like a 3.5 inch spacing between each guide in that first 18 to 24-inch section. I.M.O.

Yeah, I know. I put my running guides 3.5 inches apart starting at the tip for the first six guides sometimes. Then, when I am into a more stiff part of the blank, I will go to a more progressive spacing. 4-inch, 4.5 inch, 5 inch etc. (Your static testing will tell you the spacing - which is not always neat intervals.)

On your 8-footer, IMO, I'd play around with setting your butt guide (a Fuji RV6) at 20-inches (or 500 mm) from the face of the casting reel; you could also use a KW10 butt guide followed by a KW 5.5 at an appropriate distance beyond the butt guide..

Then, place a running guide (Fuji KT) 3.5 inches from the tip top. Place additional running guides after that at equal 3.5 inch intervals until you are past the most flexible part of the rod.

Next, progressive space the rest of the running guides down to the butt guide(s). The last two or three running guides I recommend to be Fuji KB's.

I might end up using 12 to 14 guides on an 8-foot rod depending on its natural flex curve. Keep the small KT guides out at the tip section.

Two-line static test for various bend profiles, and move guides around as you see fit. It is true as Spencer says that the tip section will flatten out under load, and line is not as likely to touch the blank in this case. I just like the close spacing in the tip of my XF/soft tip rods. With the micro guides available, it adds very little weight.

That's what I do. Play around with these suggestions and see if it works better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2023 07:02AM by Les Cline.

These blank displays a pretty typical bend profile for an extra fast blank, lots of blanks made by NFC look similar under different loads. The HS821-1 and other hotshot blanks for instance. The casting version with on top guides uses 11 guides. Specs in the guide spacing charts on their site.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2023 11:10PM by Spencer Phipps.

Thanks to you and Les for the help. I've never done a spiral wrap and not really sure how to even start. I played around with it some more tonight and got it to work I think. The first 6 or so guides are 3.5 to 4.5 apart and it leaves about 1/16 " between line and blank. the next 4 gradually spaced out between 6 and 9 inches and the reduction guides are 10-12" and I have 22" to face of reel. I would love to try a spiral wrap...can you suggest a good tutorial? Thanks again to everyone.

Hello Glenn.

Here are a few articles on the subject:

Vol/Issue...........Article........................................................Author.................................Page.
8/2 Guides: The Simple Spiral. (Wrap-Around or Acid Wrap). By William "Bill" Colby. 16
3/5 Guides: The Spiral Wrap For Casting Rods. By Ralph O'Quinn. 24
15/6 Guides: The Spiral Wrap Guide Placement. By Joy Dunlap. 10
18/2 Guides: The Spiral Wrap, A Different Way To Do It. By Chris Carrowell. 30
6/5 Guides: The Spiral Wrap, Making The Transition. By Tom Kirkman. 24


Tight Wraps & Tighter Lines.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.

Glenn,

Try a Search through the archives (button at top of page) for Simple Spiral.There are other types of Spiral Wraps (like the Robert's, O'Quinn, and even a Forhan, I think) but I like the Simple the best. There is a very good article in Rod Maker Magazine on the Simple Spiral.

Very basically, it goes something like this (0-axis is straight up, and 180-axis is straight down):

Temporarily set your guides because you will be moving them around in this process.

1. Set your butt guide on top at the same location as you did on the conventional rod's 0-axis.
2. Set your second guide, spaced the same as on your rod now, on the 180-axis.
3. Between the first and second guide place a "Bumper" guide half way at the 90-axis on the reel handle side. This guide should be a low frame guide - you want to keep the line path close to the blank. Put the Bumper on the reel handle side so the handle helps protect the guide if the rod is laying on the deck. Of course, you can put it on the other side if you want.
4. The rest of the running guides go on the 180-axis, spaced as you like. You might need fewer running guides because the line will not touch the blank on the 180-axis.
5. I suggest completing the spiral from top to bottom within about 14-inches (as per Tom Kirkman).

Basically, you want as straight of a line path as you can get going from the reel to the first 180-axis guide.

It takes some fiddling, testing, and moving things around to get it dialed in. I just try to get as close as I can and go with it....never got one perfectly straight, just straight enough.

Some tweak the 0-axis guide a few degrees to help get the line path a bit straighter, or if the reel spool loads unevenly for some reason. I have not had this issue.
Some tweak the Bumper a few degrees, or move it a little forward or back. Ideally, you want the line to touch the bottom of the ring, closest to the blank.
Some add two or up to three Bumpers to move the line from top to bottom. No harm, no foul. I like the simplicity of a single Bumper.
Some tweak the first 180 guide a few degrees to 170 or 160.

Be flexible and willing to tweak things around and play with it.

It all adds up to get the line moving from the top of the blank to the bottom of the blank in as straight a line as you can manage. None of mine are perfectly straight and they still work and cast like a charm. Oh, and if the line still touches the blank a bit, it is not a deal breaker.

The overall concept of the Spiral Wrap is about working with physics, not against it. "Line on top" of a rod wants to pull down under load using the guides a levers.This is one of the reasons for the Gimbal on heavy rods - to handle the torque generated by the guides on top wanting to "flip over" to the bottom.

"Line on bottom" of a rod is inherently stable.

I encourage you to try one. I have a few spiral wrap rods that aren't heavy duty (a ML, MH, and a H swimbait rated to 4 oz.) and they also work very well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2023 09:34AM by Les Cline.

Thanks, I think I will try a spiral wrap. I appreciate the help from all.

Glenn,
I built a conventional 808 Neo last winter. I wasn't satisfied with the results using 3 kw reduction and 7 kb 6 running guides, 10 guides in total. It reminded me of an old (70's) ugly stick we rebuilt in the 90's. We ended up using spinning guides to raise the line up high enough not to rub the blank. When I set the 808 Neo up as a simple spiral things got very much better. 10 guides plus a bumper and the static test is about perfect. The first runner is 4" from the tip and placed progressively the 4th is 51/4" from the 3rd runner. I used a kw 12 stripper kw 8 bumper and kw 8 first180 degree, two kw 6's and six kb 6 runners.
Like Les and others I would highly recommend trying this rod in a spiral configuration. It compliments that tip and mid section really well.

Hey Roger thanks for the input, this is exactly what I was looking for. I got it to work with 13 guides but that seems like a lot to me. It's a pretty unique action and I think it will work well for big baits. How do you like your rod?

Gless - I know what you mean about there appearing to be 'too many guides.'

The issue with being 'on top' in conventional casting rigs using low-frame micro guides is that it takes more guides to hold the line above the blank between points when the rod flexes. Taller guides would allow for more spacing between each guide - but then add a greater torque factor with the longer lever length of taller frames.

The way I look at it is this:

1.) Static tests show me the actual, natural bend of the rod. I place the guides to follow this bend. I view charts and such as suggested starting points....useful, but not set in stone. Put the guide where the bend says it should go. Don't put a guide where it is not needed. Then, you are perfect.

2.) Today's running guides are small and very light. Compared to the old Ugly Stick guides, the whole running guide train may weigh less than one of those old-school guides.
If you use one or two less, or one or two more KT5's, for example, the difference is very very very small. ...even smaller if you drop to the KT4.5's or even KT4's. I'd suggest 5's for a hefty swimbait rod, however. Just me.

Spiral rods don't need to have as close a spacing at the tip - but a very flexy and soft tip may still need an extra one or two to keep that line following the natural bend evenly with no large gaps or 'sags.' The KT's will not impede the blank bending the way it wants to if you add a couple more if it looks better to you.

An extreme example of 'too many guides' is from an experience at an ICRBE in 2011. A guy had a 9-foot fly rod he had built with something like double the number of guides on it. Way way way too many, right!? He did this on purpose to experiment and prove a point. That rod cast perfectly. I loved it. I'd fish it in a heartbeat! And it did not feel overly heavy, stiff, nor clunky. In fact, it actually felt like the line and rod were one thing, not two. Will I ever build a fly rod like that? You know, I just might some day....but is it necessary - no. It just made me think and change my paradigm about guides and how many are too many.

Lots of folks are used to the off the rack rods which often have the absolute minimum amount of guides, and often guides that are a size or two too large. These rods are designed that way to save costs and 'function' with a very wide spectrum of reels, line sizes, etc. They have to be that way because the makers don't know what the @#$%& people may try to do with those rods - and they still have to function passably.

The custom builder can dial it in down to the details. I'm glad you are dialing it in!