Building a casting pike rod and debating what size butt guide to use, 10 as Fuji recommends, or slim down to a 7. Last night I was experimenting with a size 10 and size 7.

I mocked up both guide options and threw a dozen or so casts with each and didn't notice an appreciable difference. The 10 may have the advantage by a few feet. Visually, the 7 definitely brings the line down quicker and is obviously less weight. The 10 has a more fluid visual as it pulls it down to the runners, but looks a little big to me just from a visual standpoint. Both guide options static test fine at 21" form reel.

I'm curious what others use for the butt guides, or feedback you'd have.

Details on the build:
- 7' 10" casting
- will be using a 200 size reel
- guide train 10 or 7, down to a 5.5, 5 (ran out of 4's), 4 runners, 5 tt.
- Also, building this for a trip next week so don't have time to order additional guides, like an 8.

The choke guide isn't the butt guide. And for casting rods I think this is all sort of silly anyway. There is nothing to "choke" because the line has already been tamed by nature of how it comes off the reel. It's not like a spinning reel where the line comes off in large coils. Just use a large or high enough enough butt guide so that under load the line does not get hard down on the blank between the butt guide and the reel. Then just go ahead and use whatever your smallest guides are going to be from there on out to the tip.

Ok thanks.

To clarify, it's not a choke guide because it's not a spinning rod? The Fuji guide recommendation calls it a "choke (butt)" guide. [www.fujitackle.eu]

What's the difference?

Choke guides were initially named as such because they were the point where the final point of guide reduction for line control took place. This applies to spinning rods.

Most of what has been written or "developed" for casting rods has never really been any sort of major difference from how casting rod guide set-ups have always been done. The line control issue just isn't there on a casting rod the way it is on a spinning rod. I suppose Fuji has chosen to call the butt guide the choke guide on a casting rod because there is no further line control to be done beyond that point. I think when you mention that it is a casting rod the terminology is understood.

..........

Your first guide from the reel has to be tall enough to not hit the blank, the foregrip if you use one, and the hand that holds it, or to be high enough to grab the line easily for presentations such as flipping. It's just that simple, what you use to do that is up to you, there are a bunch of options.

Thanks guys, going with the 7 then. Appreciate the feedback.

RV6?

Go with the 10, it is the correct height to the bottom of the ring. Same height as an RV-6 in order to line up with the reel guide. Or just use an RV-6 and nail it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2023 07:29PM by Lynn Behler.

It’s seldom I build a casting rod anymore without an RV6.

You said it yourself “The 10 may have the advantage of a few feet”… the 7 adds more friction causing short casting distances, friction also causes line wear. Whatever size you use the line should flow as close as possible to the top of the guide ring. The picture shows the spot the line should contact (pink dot). Placement should fall around 19.5ish inches, 21” is good.

Of course it’s your build so do it the way you like. I personally prefer using fuji’s recommendations when using their products. I have faith they put in the work/testing to make a superior product that is replicated by the competitors. My own experience when following their guidelines has been nothing but satisfactory.

I’m also finishing my first rod using a rv6 and really like the performance and look of it.

While I will not argue with any of the opinions stated, and I always build casting rods with the RV6 and they perform very well, I also in the early days of micros built casting rods with the first guide as small as a 5 and the rods performed well. At that time many were recommending a 5 micro then smaller ones to the end. I have even built with the RV 6 on backwards and cannot see a difference in casting performance. I really don't think that any of this stuff makes any significant difference.

Keep in mind that with a pike rod, most likely sort of heavy lures will be used and they probably will "cast a mile" with any setup.

Line wear? I think the sun, time, pike teeth and rocks do more damage to lines than any guide setup.

Micheal - I should have said… one more thing to cause wear.

I have to wonder why nobody ever asks what type and size of line are being used when someone asks for opinions on guide sizes for casting rods? It may not make as big a difference on casting rods as it does on spinning rods, but it still makes a difference.

I'd love to say that I did an experiment earlier this year that set out to prove that line size makes a difference on casting rods, But I can't. It's just something I stumbled on to while out fishing. I was fishing a jerkbait over emerging weeds using 12# fluorocarbon line, but the bait was getting a little too deep and hanging up in the tops of the weeds. I tried a couple of different baits but couldn't get bit on them, so I decided to change out the reel for a reel I had on a different rod. Identical reels, the only difference being the reel I was changing to had 20# fluorocarbon line on it.

The difference in line diameter did what I knew it would do as far as not allowing the bait to get as deep, but it also made a pretty big difference in the number of backlashes I would get. I got more beginnings of backlashes with the heavier line. And I had to be more careful when trying to make real long casts. When I adjusted the brakes slightly to eliminate the backlash thing, my casting distance decreased.

My jerkbait rod has a Fuji KW 8 as the butt guide.

David, if I were to say I was planning on using 12 pound FC what would the guide size be? 30 pound braid? 20 pound mono? My question is based on the fact that I never have considered line type in designing a casting rod and have no idea how it would affect the design. I simply use the RV6 with mostly 5.5 runners with different lines and think it basically works fine.

Here’s a chart

Michael, that's my point. Nobody seems to consider, or at least they don't mention that they do, line size and line type when choosing guides for a casting rod. In the instance I mentioned above, I am convinced that the more supple 12# line allowed it to work better with the shorter KW 8 butt guide, than the stiffer 20# line did.

The only reason I even made my first post is because more than one poster said that all you have to worry about with butt guide placement on a casting rod, is to not let the line touch the fore grip or the blank between the reel and the butt guide. No doubts because of the way line comes off a casting reel versus a spinning reel, that casting rod guide trains are more forgiving as far as guide size and guide placement goes, but they aren't immune.

All I am saying that if you're using more stiff lines, you might want to put more consideration into butt guide size (height) and placement than just not letting the line touch anything between the reel and the butt guide.

Here is a Fuji video, narrated by Jim Ising, which visualizes how the KR concept works with both spinning and casting rods. The KR casting concept is the last half of the video.
[m.youtube.com]
Norm

Hello All.

If you want the perfect fishing rod "Everything" matters.
1.Type of water.
2.Type of fish.
3.Hook size, type, & construction.
4.All facets of your line (type construction, diameter...)
5.Reel drag, height, angle, spool capacity, spool diameter...
6.All facets of your blank (Slow, Fast, X-Fast / Progressive like most or Tapered in Stages like a Hot Shot...).
7.All facets of your Guides from materials to design, height to ring diameter, insert thickness to insert attachment points & types, foot size to foot shape, proper placement for each size & type guide.
8.Reel Seat (don't get me started).
9.Proper grips (again don't get me started).
10.Butt...
11. The Nut Behind The Wheel (you & Me).

Happy fishing, oh yea did I miss everything? or just some things.


Tight Wraps & Tighter Lines.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.

David,

I appreciate and value your observations about line size and type having an effect on the presentation of a specific bait in a specific situation! This is an area in my own fishing that I want to improve! Excellent example you shared! I want to be more conscious of, and intentional in, the rod, reel, and line systems I choose and how they work together.

What I know about line:

Braid floats (does not stretch and is small diameter to high strength ratio = so it has less friction with the water and may actually sink faster even though it floats)
Mono floats (also stretches and is the 'standard' diameter to strength ratio)
Fluoro sinks. (also stretches but not as much as mono and is close to the 'standard' diameter to strength ratio of mono)

There are also braid to leader combinations which can change all the above.

So, how do you approach this? In one way, you already explained it - you have several reels with different line types at hand you think works best for a specific set of conditions. Do you also build your rods for a specific set of line types?

A specific example I learned from my fishing buddy:

Mr. B has a technique of long-line trolling for walleye and wiper. He uses a very whippy spinning rod, a SR7 jointed crankbait, and #10 Fire Line tied straight to the lure. He lets out up to 150 ft. of line and trolls about 1 to 2 mph over and around submerged humps that are from 15 ft. to 30 ft. under the surface. He can get that little crankbait down to 25 ft. or so. Rods are in holders. The light braided line does not friction-float the bait it seems. The whippy rod absorbs the abrupt and sometimes dramatic take of a fish (not uncommonly, a flathead or blue cat in the double digit range).

In this case, from my observation, the technique would not work as well with mono line. Too much stretch in 100+ feet of line. Too much friction with the water; and a point of diminishing returns where the more line let out the less deep the crankbait will run. Lighter mono, with less friction, will still stretch and is not suited to the violence of some fish strikes, grinding rocks when coming 'over the hump', etc. Similar with fluoro line though it might be better than mono.

So, if I were to build myself a rod for this rather specific kind of fishing, I would take all those factors into consideration - especially the line. My guide sizes and choices would be based on light braid. Blank choice based on shock absorption and no line stretch. Reel choice based on long-lines out of the spool....but no casting involved.

I'm into the weeds here.

I'm curious about your approach to the Line Type factor in your fishing and rod-building.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2023 02:30PM by Les Cline.

Joe,
Simply put, I would never put any first guide on a pike casting rod that was smaller than a #10 guide.

For myself - it is all about line wear.

You can argue all you want, but with a 100,000 casts, the line wears less with a size #10 - compared to using a smaller guide for the same rod.

Best wishes.

If you have a couple of years time on your hand, build the rod with a size that you like that is smaller than a size 1 first guide and after complete, throw a casting plug the same weight as your typical fishing lure that you use - 5,000 times. This is starting with new fishing line - in the type and lb test in your normal fishing line.

Then, cut off the first guide you installed on the new rod and replace it with a #10. Then, go out and duplicate your earlier testing and record the line wear.

Let us know what you find.

Best wishes