I've been on a Learn More about the KR Concept kick for a couple weeks now. My first time reading and learning through the material a few years ago, I realized the many advantages and flexibilities KR provides. And just like with CCS, I knew there was even more to learn with a deeper study.

One idea that stood out from the rest was Rapid Choke.

The KR Concept advocates for a Rapid Choke, or shorter Reduction Train (RT), than the original NGC concept. So, I wanted to confirm a few things with those who are ahead of me on the KR Curve about a few nuances.

In relationship to these questions, I am curious about braided lines up to #20 at the very max, and mono/fluoro up to #12 at the very max.

1.) As I understand it, the KR GPS Calculator at Angler's Resource (http://www.anglersresource.net/) already calculates for Rapid Choke??? (I think it does, but only read it in one place.)
2.) Have any of you pushed the limits of RT Length, and if so, what did you find as a minimum or maximum RT length?

One person with experience I had a conversation with recently said making a drastic change, not a gradual one, in the RT of light braid (up to #15) was important to line taming and performance. In fact, he said he will even drop the middle guide in a KR GT Group from 25-12-5.5 to 25-10-5.5 configuration. That got me wondering about just how flexible the KR system is.

3.) Has anyone else tweaked any of the KR GT Groups - either 1st (Butt), 2nd, or 3rd guide? What did you find out?
4.) Anyone tried a Two Guide RT?

There is an excellent article titled, "Building the KR Concept Spinning Rod" (bottom of page 3) at the Angler's Resource site that explains how to locate the Choke Guide manually without using the KR GPS - hint, it is based off the NGC system. Why even do it manually when the GPS is right there? For me, seeing it calculated old-school helps me grasp the idea of what Rapid Choke really means.

If you want rapid choking of the line just pick up a MicroWave butt guide and you get it all right done at the butt guide.

Hi Les , all of your questions can be found in the archives . Yes, many here have used two guides and I believe I even heard a single guide for a reduction train but everybody who has tried or gone that route utilizes light braid with them because light braid is so supple and forgiving that it can work with most any layout even poor layouts .

It is for this reason that I spool up with a heavier braid than I intend to fish with when testing setups . Heavier braids allow you to detect areas in the guide train that could use adjusting, lighter braids make it much more difficult to detect area's that could use a slight adjustment . The only real way to know for sure what works best is lots of casting and adjusting .


Norman uses a KL16H for his first guide in the reduction train on some of his builds that use light braid and it's a great choice because there is no need to go any larger . Light braid doesn't need a 20 or 25 size ring as do considerably heavier braids for best performance . As long as the height of the KL16H is appropriate it will work exceptionally well and be more efficient than a build with a 25 size ring .

Don't take this the wrong way but I think you're overthinking this stuff and there's no need to . There are no secrets being held back that will provide a noticeable performance boost . The adjustments people make with the KR concept system make extremely subtle differences because of Fuji's fantastic research and their own testing . Deciding to go with a KL10H instead of a KL12H makes very very little difference , I would say undetectable by most , it's just a minor tweak that I like based on my line choice . I would recommend you follow what Fuji recommends and Fuji's own guide groups you can't go wrong and will be exceptionally pleased .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2023 04:22PM by chris c nash.

I agree that simply using the Fuji software works just fine. I usually up the line pound test until the software recommends a 20 butt guide because I might want to use a little heavier braid at some time. I don't even bother to test cast because I've never found that I could beat the recommended reduction train with any tweaks. I have built the 16-8-5.5 on rods I know will only use lighter braids and they work just fine on the lighter braids.

With most blanks the True Natural Frequency will be unaffected by using a 20-10-5.5 instead of a 16-8-5;5 and the actual weight difference is undetectable to me. To maximize the TNF I use 4 mm titanium runners. It does make a difference on recovery speed, and faster recovery speed has to mean longer casts.

Believe it or not but Hitena Pureline at 19 pound test casts like much lighter 4 carrier braids. Pricey , but lasts a long time and casts wonderfully.

Thank you Mike, Chris, and Michael!

Chris - Excellent tip on testing with a heavier braided line! Makes complete sense!

I'm gonna ramble here for a minute because it helps me solidify my learning - not to share what you already know...which is more than me!

The KR Concept (KRC) makes more sense the more I look at it, just like CCS and TNF. As Chris suggested, I looked back in the archives (search) and found more information and experience there. What a treasure trove!

Whenever I see a chart, calculator, or recommendation for guide placement, I wonder why and how it works. It was the same with the KRC - particularly with regards to the placement of the important Butt and Choker guides. As has been stated, anything Fuji says is very credible and based on more hours of tests and research in a week than I have done in my lifetime. I'm just very curious about WHY: Why is the Butt guide placed X-distance from the spool face? WHY is the Choker guide placed at X-distance from the Butt guide? WHY are KRC guides designed that way?

A breakthrough in my thinking happened when it finally sunk in that the KRC is an extension of the New Guide Concept (NGC). There are some things that are alike, and some notable differences between these two concepts. Understanding WHY there are differences is what I wanted to internalize.

In the NGC, the placement location of the Butt and Choker are related to the height and upsweep angle of the reel; and same with the KRC. Not surprisingly, the Butt guide is in the same position +/- for the KRC and NGC. The Choker is placed closer to the Butt guide in the KRC which makes for a shorter Reduction Train (RT) and 'Rapid Choke.'

The supple characteristics of light braided line, and also light mono/fluoro, make a shorter RT possible. Heavier and stiffer lines need a longer reduction train to tame the line path efficiently. An NGC or 27X set up might be better for less supple and heavier lines; though these will also work fine with the lighter lines, too.

Lighter braid also allows for a smaller ring sizes to tame it, but still needs the taller frame to account for the reel upsweep angle. Thus, a high-frame, smaller ring is desirable. IMO, braid also played a role in the micro guide world....and why the KRC distinguishes between "micro rods" and "conventional rods." Ahhhh....Duh!

Now I think I have the KRC better organized in my mind as to the WHY of the KRC better than before. It is like learning the laws of physics or chemistry for me (which I claim to not know all that much). Once it really clicks, it opens up a whole world - even if it was discovered decades ago. Ha!

Thanks for your patience!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2023 10:48AM by Les Cline.

The odd thing I in-vision when dropping from size 12 to 10 would be the progressive spacing would be off, If you’re following the straight line path from the butt guide to the choke guide. if you don’t care about that then it wouldn’t be an issue.

The first handful of KR Concept builds I used the calculator from Anglers Resource and they came out perfectly fine, but once I found the instructions on how to set up rod guides according to the reel being used I personally think it performs even better. The step-by-step instructions leave out any guess work. I can now layout and place the reduction guides in a couple minutes according to the angle of the reel I’ll use without wasting time clicking my way through the calculator.


*links that helped me understand the KR concept…

[www.fujitackle.eu]

[www.guidesnblanks.com]

The rapid choke concept involves not only a shorter reduction train but also the use of high frame small ringed reduction guides to help choke and control the line coils. Both are important. Fuji designed their KR reduction guides to be used in groups based on their height and ring size. These groups almost space themselves at the correct intervals along the blank. Because of this, I have not played around much with changing the guides within the various recommended size groups. It should be mentioned that Fuji did not develop the KRGPS, it was developed by Anglers Resource under the leadership of Jim Ising. It was developed inputting spacing criteria obtained from Fuji. It was designed to help rod builders in setting up a well performing KR concept rod. It is certainly not a perfect program, but it does a very good job of recommending butt and choke guide positions for most rods. As I’ve mentioned before, there are a few glitches in the program, such as giving non-progressive spacing within the reduction train in some cases, as well as recommending too few runners in most cases. KR GPS places the choke point in front of the butt guide at a distance of about .42 X distance between the butt guide and the tip top. This reduction train length works quite well for most rods. As one notices, the use of a choke guide spacing factor does cause the RT to become longer with longer rods. I have tested an invariant RT length with movable RT length using rods of varying length, and found little difference in casting distance. The use of an invariant RT length just requires more running guides with longer rods.
For ultra light rods only, I have changed the number and size of the reduction guides. In one case, as I mentioned before, I compared the casting distance between using a 16H, 8H, 5.5M reduction train vs a 16H, 8H reduction train, and found no difference between the two. This used exactly the same rod, the only difference was replacing the last reduction guide with a running guide. In other cases, I’ve used a two guide reduction train using a 12H and a 6H to the running guides and it worked very well. I used light braid on a small reel for these test.
As I’ve mentioned before, there is a lot of flexibility in setting up a well performing KR concept spin rod.
Norm

Here is a Fuji video, narrated by Jim Ising, which visualizes how the KR concept works for both spinning and casting.
[m.youtube.com]
Norm

Michael Tarr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The odd thing I in-vision when dropping from size
> 12 to 10 would be the progressive spacing would be
> off, If you’re following the straight line path
> from the butt guide to the choke guide. if you
> don’t care about that then it wouldn’t be an
> issue.
>
> The first handful of KR Concept builds I used the
> calculator from Anglers Resource and they came out
> perfectly fine, but once I found the instructions
> on how to set up rod guides according to the reel
> being used I personally think it performs even
> better. The step-by-step instructions leave out
> any guess work. I can now layout and place the
> reduction guides in a couple minutes according to
> the angle of the reel I’ll use without wasting
> time clicking my way through the calculator.
>
>
> *links that helped me understand the KR concept…
>
> [www.fujitackle.eu]
> f
>
> [www.guidesnblanks.com]
> _spec_chart_2018.pdf





There is only a 1 mm difference in guide height between the KL12H and KL10H Michael . That's one of the reasons I prefer it .

Michael and Norm,

Thank you so much for your links to information and your personal testing results! I sincerely appreciate sharing your experiences with me. I really like the diagrams Michael shares - it makes things easier to grasp for me! Norm hits it over the wall in centerfield no matter the pitch.

Glitches in KR Calculator I noticed in a particular build:

On an NFC HS760-1 (Mag Medium) I built as a spinning rod, the calculator threw a non-progressive spacing number at me:

9-inches butt #1 to #2;
6.5-inches #2 to #3;
and 7.75-inches #3 to Choke guide.

Maybe I made a mistake. Nevertheless, I built it and love the rod.

Norm - You made an important discovery from your testing of Invariant RT length vs Variable RT length. Conclusion: It makes little difference in casting distance. My takeaway from that is, all things being equal, I prefer to keep the overall weight as low as possible and toward the butt end of the rod for balance. The shorter the RT, the closer I can keep it near my hand and away from the tip.

As you said, additional running guides may be needed for longer rods.

I assume you mean an Invariant Length of the RT for reels that are the same size/height. That is, I can understand that the RT train would be the same on all 2500 size reels regardless of rod length. The RT length for all reels 5000 size would be the same, too, though there are differences/variables between the RT lengths for these reels because of their different size and height.

Or do you have a Universal Range of RT length you have discovered? I recall you have mentioned some general guidelines in other posts (Butt Guide about 48 cm in front of reel spool: Choker Guide about 51 to 53 cm in front of Butt Guide). I am sure there is a range of RT lengths because most reels are within a range of upsweep angle and height off the blank. (The smallest and largest reels would be the outliers.)

In the end, as you said Norm: (paraphrased) Light braid covers a multitude of sins.

Also, Norm - Thank you for the info on RT's for the Ultra Light Category!

Thank you for getting into the weeds with me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2023 02:21PM by Les Cline.

Make it easy for you. A direct path to the choke point on the rod guided by the angle of the reel shaft. Use high framed guides in this path, with the butt guide being large enough to capture the line just to the point where it is almost slapping the sides of the ring but not actually doing it. The following guide from the butt guide should be reduced by at least half the diameter with the next guide reduced another half or slightly over. The choke guide should be behind the actual choke point on the rod a little and should be the size of the rest of the running guides. For 2500 sized reel I use" 20h, 10h, 5.5m, 4s to the tip and 4.5 tip top to help pass knots. You could also do 16h, 8h, 5m, 4s the rest the same. 4s can always be replace by 4.5s or 5s. Looking through the guides the first 3 guides should look like a target. Scale up for larger reels.

Thank you for the run-down, Lance!

I can tell you value the KR Concept! Do you like KR for both spin and casting set ups?

I like your suggestion on using a half-size larger tip top to help smooth out that braid-to-leader transition. I don't usually do that, but I have always thought about trying it.

Les - Yes, my testing with the Invariant versus movable choke points was conducted using the same reel and line for each rod length.

As I’ve mentioned before, to help me visualize the line path though the guide train I do the following. I attach the reel, run the line through all the guides, attach a light a light weight to the end of the line, and then holding the rod horizontally I press the line to the bottom of the spool. What I’m looking for is a straight line path from the bottom of the spool to the choke guide and another straight line from the choke guide to the tip top, with the line touching the bottom of each guide. This is similar to the line path diagrams shown in the publication that Micheal linked to. It does much the same thing as putting the line to the center of the spool and checking for line path. I personally think using the bottom of the spool is easier to visualize line path. In fact, if your reel spool has a line clip, you can just clip the line to the spool and rotate the spool, so the clip is on the bottom. It would be much the same as attaching the line to the center of the reel and looking at the line path. As expected, the line would just pass through a different part of the guide, but the results obtained are very similar. Easy to do and it works.
Norm

Re" On an NFC HS760-1 (Mag Medium) I built as a spinning rod, the calculator threw a non-progressive spacing number at me:

9-inches butt #1 to #2;
6.5-inches #2 to #3;
and 7.75-inches #3 to Choke guide."

I don't worry about non progressive spacing, I just build per the software and it works. I don't notice the "non-progressive" spacing, and no user of my spin rods has ever mentioned it. Notice that the comments on the software say to move the choke guide out a little which would make the "non-progressive" spacing more non-progressive. I usually don't do that, but I always seem to be casting farther than my boat partners. I think little moves of any of the guides really don't change the performance significantly.

Non-progressive spacing bugs the @#$%& out of me! As mentioned, it probably doesn’t make that much of difference in performance, but it really bothers me. Non-progressive spacing is one of my pet peeves, because it makes no sense, but that’s just me.
Norm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2023 05:46PM by Norman Miller.

Yes, Norman, I know how you feel. But with the smaller guide sizes, and the lack of any attention to this issue by rod users, you may be the only one worrying about it. Do you really think it has ANY effect on performance? Most likely, it is the result of the heights of the guides so the software chooses the most straight line through the guides. To get rid of it Fuji should have made a height adjustment on one of the guides.

But I think we are talking about a distinction without a difference.

I think of you every time I use my rods with your titanium welding wire keeper. Nice!

regards, Mick

Non progressive spacing will not in any way decrease performance . Most want a rod that looks correct and that means having progressive spacing and there is nothing wrong with that . It will in many cases require adjustments that fall slightly outside the recommendations by Fuji and ones own testing but good luck noticing any performance differences especially when spooling up with light braid . It would be undetectable imo and now you have the benefit of having a rod that looks as good as it performs . You just won't notice differences in performance if you're only making small changes to get the progressive spacing you want especially with the light line choice.

Thanks Mick!
Norm

If you look at all the KR guide spacing diagrams published by Fuji, none of them are non-progressively spaced. In my humble opinion, the non-progressive reduction guide spacing that the KRGPS sometimes gives is a glitch rather than an intended measurement.
Norm

The diagrams will ALWAYS show progressive spacing .