Ernie,
You asked a question and a number of respected builders have taken the time to reply. Give them the common courtesy and common decency to thank them rather than criticize their replies. Your attitude is akin to Phil Ewaniki’s = if you demand hard numbers and facts, perform the test yourself and post your results for everyone's enlightenment.
And YES, different guide trains have been built on identical “(as identical as can be)” blanks and their casting differences measured. If you would take the time and initiative to “search” this site, you will likely find quite a few posts / articles. I am one who built 2 identical rods with different guide trains, orchestrated and performed the test and posted the results for everyone’s enjoyment and information; [www.rodbuilding.org]

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mike,

I am willing to call it a day myself. My point in all this is that I have seen endless discussions about this KR system, and I intermittently see guys losing sleep over trying to figure out the diagrams, and the mathematical formulas and measurements, and all the variables loaded into the use of this system. There are guys who stated that using the guidelines of the system, and in their particular circumstance, they are looking at perhaps a reel and one guide...either in addition to the tip top...or the tip top! Who the heck is going to fish with one guide, regardless of the "science" behind it? I only build rods for myself or my grand kids, but imagine a rod builder putting something together for a client with one guide and a tip top, and trying to explain that that is how the science had it mapped out.

The way I look at it, if you need a bunch of fancy or otherwise sensitive equipment to measure variables that the average human being is not going to be able to easily appreciate on a fishing trip, the new and improved system doesn't seem that magical or for that matter important to me. Truth be known, I didn't know that I was struggling for distance or had rod performance problems at any time or with any rod I ever built. I still think that the most significant advancement in modern times is the advent of braided line. I resisted it forever, but when I finally gave in, THAT made significant differences that even I could appreciate immediately. Same rods...different line.

In closing, there has been an enormous amount of information and numbers of discussions about this KR system and how terrific it is. But when I challenged people to tell me what exactly it is about the system that reigns superior to other systems, three people chimed in and there was no clear consensus as to what it is that is better. I could have had twenty people chime in and agree in some way shape or form what they got out of using the KR system as compared to whatever it was they were using previously....but that didn't happen. I have built two NFC blanks using the KR system, and I am very happy with the results. But at this time I cannot see anything earth shattering different with regards to the guide system that makes it far superior than if I had used another system or quality guide set. And if I need some sensitive outside equipment to demonstrate the difference, for all practical purposes, it may not be that different.

Sorry Mark,

I just saw your reply and I cannot let this go. First off my friend, nowhere and at any time did I criticize anyone's replies. I did however repeatedly ask anyone end everyone who replied to actually answer my question if within their reply they did not. There is far too much interest (possibly hype) surrounding this topic not to dig in, and because I have used it and wasn't quite sure what I should have expected, I asked the simple question...what makes this system so great? What is supposed to be so significantly improved by using this system as opposed to another? And after all the accolades and discussions of this system by so many on this board to date, it was like pulling teeth to get a straight answer. That's not a criticism, that's a result.

Now...thank you for the reference to your post regarding the comparison of two rods built with different guide systems...one more conventional, and one with the KR system. You came to the conclusion that the rod built with the KR system did in fact perform in a superior manner, but I also found it interesting that you commented that although it was what you expected, it wasn't quite as dramatic as you might have anticipated. But now I must comment on some of the data.

I have been fly fishing since I was thirteen years old, and am now sixty-eight years old. Although rarely necessary to do so, I regularly cast a fly line 80 to 100 feet depending on the rod I'm using at the time (usually 7 or 8 weights these days), and either a floating or intermediate line. This past Saturday I attended an event sponsored by a fishing club that I am a member of, and they held a distance casting contest. The spinning rods were all 7', commercially built, and of varying manufacturers. They used dummy lures that I believe were likely an ounce in weight. I'm 5'6' tall, and my best cast that day was 185 feet. The winner ultimately cast 227 feet, and looked like a kid in his twenties. So casts in the hundred foot range seem a little odd to me. Of course, I really have no clue what those rod blanks you used are, nor what it was that you were slinging, so those numbers may be totally in line.

But just to be clear. If this board is for people to learn, it is generally done by asking questions. If the answers do not actually address the specific question, it behooves the questioner to try again. Certainly that should not offend anyone. As a practicing veterinarian for forty one years now, I can assure you that I have been asked many questions in my career, many of whom I was unable to answer on the spot. In those cases, I always had the same answer..."I don't know". Then I set out to find the answer.

Thank you for sharing your point of view, Ernie!

Your questions and challenges have helped me think more carefully about the things I believe to be true and advantageous about the KR Concept. I believe I have been very clear about what I think is, "exactly what it is about the system that reigns superior to other systems"...and listed them in detail. I'm not trying to change your mind or your paradigms - rather share my experience. I don't know everything, obviously.

Take what you like and leave the rest. AND BY ALL MEANS....if you have a better way figured out, then PLEASE share it with me!!! (not the others...because I want an advantage on those Fish Hawks named Miller, Baylor, Danek, and Nash!!!! Throw Ballard, Talmo, and of course Kirkman in there, too, to complete my Mt. Rushmore of rod building and fishing prowess.

I agree with you on more things than I disagree....especially your insight about braided line!

You've helped me learn!

Les

Great content as usual, and I have force fed myself a lot of info on the KR method based on this thread. It's perfect timing because I'm building out a spinning rig.

The only issue is the rig consists of an 8ft rod and a 12k reel for 20-30lb saltwater work. The KR method seemingly contradicts the 2018 Fuji guide spec chart in terms of recommended guide sizes for a build that is similar to what I'm working on - the recommended guides do not drop the sizes as quickly as possible, in many cases the ring size recommendations are in the classical 30/25/20/16/12...etc pattern. Very frustrating!! The Anglers Resource GPS calculator also only scales to a limited reel size, so I'm left having to work with a lot of info gaps to avoid doing some manual planning labor.

For what it's worth, I'm going to test Chris Nash's approach because it seems to line up with Fuji/Anglers Resources video evidence of what the KR method is supposed to do and it seemingly closes the gaps with some of the placement calculators that are out there (and thank you Chris for the content, it was very substantial feedback, I will always value a surf caster's input when I'm trying to build something for maximum distance).

Two cents on trying to understand the unknown - no amount of reading, or fact searching, will ever amount to directly testing a hypothesis using controlled methods. Reading & fact searching should only provide reinforcement/education for or against the hypothesis one may be testing, but real answers only exist in documented results - often only achieved by executing & documenting the test yourself if the work hasn't been clearly documented before.

Hi Ken , what line do you plan on spooling up with and what type of fishing are you going to be doing if you don't mind me asking ? Sounds like casting distance is of importance to you and from your post it appears you plan on using braid in the 20-30 pound range on your 12K size reel . The single foot KR concept guides are best for braids 20 pounds and under but depending on the line choice you may be able to get away with 30 pound if it's an extremely supple line but those types of lines are pricey .

From my experience the single foot KR guides are not the best choice for serious saltwater fishing when any type of rough treatment is to be expected . I did use KR concept single foots on one of my 11 foot surf rod builds and went with a KL25H , KL10H instead of the recommended KL12H , KL5.5M to a KB 5.5 or a 5 to KT runners on out and it is a stellar performer but there's no hiding the fact that the single foot KR concept guides are somewhat fragile and not nearly as stout as I would prefer . It's very clear that these guides were designed for freshwater and light saltwater angling . I chose to use them anyway and while they perform as expected you need to be especially prudent not to damage them.

Many love the old original superline like fireline but fireline only excels on single foot KR concept builds if you stay really light . Even fireline in the 14 pound strength is much LESS supple than most other modern lines in the 20 pound class . If you jump up to 20 pound fireline, ( Not recommended) you will be dealing with a line diameter in the range of many 40 to 50 pound lines .

Don't even think about the 30/25/20/16/12...etc pattern. That type of layout is for lines that have considerable memory and cannot deal with being choked down right away . A 25 size ring of the appropriate height would definitely work with a 30 mm ring being the absolute largest you should ever consider based on your reel and line choices .

On my heavier surf rod build I have an RV25 ,RV16 , KW10M and I believe I jumped down to a KB 6 or KB 5.5 than a few KT 's n out . I would have preferred to skip the RV16 on that layout all together and even tried the Fuji recommended KW12M instead of the KW10M but the KW12M was still not tall enough to make it work so I kept the RV16 . I wanted to test every configuration I could think of even if it wasn't recommended . It's a setup that will easily handle considerably heavier braids than what I normally fish with so that's a plus . But it's not the ideal layout for the lines I typically use.

Some people use Fuji's KW12M and the KW10M together which is a big no no . Their ring sizes are much much too close in diameter to have any positive impact at all especially with all but the heaviest braids. The line angle change between those two guides when used in unison will be extremely minimal which is why you only want to choose one not both .





My spinner of choice did not allow me to to skip the RV25 and start with an RV20 instead which I wanted to try , the height was a poor match for the reel I choose to use . The RV 20 would need to be pushed further out on the blank due to it's lack of height which I didn't want so the RV25 was the choice. My surf reels have a parallel foot so there is very little if any upsweep angle like on most much smaller spinners .


I wish you much success , please keep us updated.

Chris I am running 30-50lb braid main line with leaders 15-30lb. The reel spool is ~60mm so I'm starting with KW30, dropping to a KW16 then a KW12 however if it doesn't line up well on the blank I may toss in another ring somewhere in that mix. Running KW8's to the top after the reduction train. Will try to remember to post what works out.

So this is a NGC build not a KR concept which is fine . Not sure if you're going with the high frame KW 30 which has a height of 61.2 MM or the low frame which has a height of 50.4 MM but that dip to a KW 16 with either 30 size just isn't going to fit well height wise but the KW 20 will . A KW12M is higher in height than a KW16 but the two KWM guides Fuji came out with, KW12M/KW10M were designed to be used with RV KR double foot concept builds. That doesn't mean it's against the law to use them for other things and if they match well with standard NGC KW builds knock yourself out .


The problem is the KW series frames were never designed to me a rapid choke type system and the guide heights and ring sizes reflect that , the KR concept was designed to be a rapid choke system but it clearly doesn't apply with your particular build because of two things . The first is the choice of using 30-50 pound braid and the second is you chose KW guides instead of the KR concept guides . If you wanted a true KR concept build you would have needed to go with the RV double foots which have the right heights and ring sizes which the KW series lacks .

You will still end up with a fine build that performs well but the choice of using KW guides specifically will limit your ability to build a true rapid choke KR concept rod . Nothing more beneficial than testing and trying as many things as possible though as you will find out .

This recommendation from Fujj shows the pictured guide train will handle PE 2 (40lbs) braid and a 25lbs mono leader.

To comment on casting distance, I just finished a 7’10” RODgeeks C3710MMF using a guide train of 25H-12H-7M-6L-5.5 runners. I was effortlessly casting 130’ in my back yard using a 3/16oz Megabass Karashi twitch bait. I’m sure if my yard was longer with less trees I could easily add 50 more feet. I was using a stradic 3000, 20lbs braid, 4’ 20lbs mono leader, FG connection knot.

To add, this is the first time I used the 3 chokes + high belly guide. The distance I was reaching with little effort casting this 3/16oz lure amazed me.

Chris I am seeing this today as I am lining up the reel and guides I disclosed and I agree with you - it's not going to work for a rapid reduction train.

Surprisingly, by mixing up a few guide sizes, I was able to get a 30/20/10/8 ring size on the KW's to line up pretty well with the reel spool axis and it flows into my tape outs for the running guides. Mind you this blank is a decently fast action with a lot of unbendable real estate, the stripper guide lands at around 25" from the spool. However, as you said it would be, it's not a rapid reduction train. The interesting thing is when test casting after tape out of all the guides, you can see the line slap reduction that is demonstrated on the Angler Resource/Fuji YouTube video through the 30/20/10 reduction section. It might not be as good as the by-the-rules rapid reduction approach, but I think it will work out for what I need it to do.

I'm settling with the KW's because those RV's are $$$ and I need to be able to beat this rod up a bit (offshore fishing). Nonetheless I still followed your placement strategy based on the reel axis & line position within the guide and it lines up with that new reduction guide selection.

FYI test casting did great, I really think it will be a winner. Thanks again for the input on this one Chris it helped me a lot.

Ken Delbridge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chris I am seeing this today as I am lining up the
> reel and guides I disclosed and I agree with you -
> it's not going to work for a rapid reduction
> train.
>
> Surprisingly, by mixing up a few guide sizes, I
> was able to get a 30/20/10/8 ring size on the KW's
> to line up pretty well with the reel spool axis
> and it flows into my tape outs for the running
> guides. Mind you this blank is a decently fast
> action with a lot of unbendable real estate, the
> stripper guide lands at around 25" from the spool.
> However, as you said it would be, it's not a
> rapid reduction train. The interesting thing is
> when test casting after tape out of all the
> guides, you can see the line slap reduction that
> is demonstrated on the Angler Resource/Fuji
> YouTube video through the 30/20/10 reduction
> section. It might not be as good as the
> by-the-rules rapid reduction approach, but I think
> it will work out for what I need it to do.
>
> I'm settling with the KW's because those RV's are
> $$$ and I need to be able to beat this rod up a
> bit (offshore fishing). Nonetheless I still
> followed your placement strategy based on the reel
> axis & line position within the guide and it lines
> up with that new reduction guide selection.
>
> FYI test casting did great, I really think it will
> be a winner. Thanks again for the input on this
> one Chris it helped me a lot.



That's great Ken , sounds like you understand exactly what's going on , a 30, 20 ,10 will work very very well for what you want to do and you still managed to avoid using the 25 ,the 16 and the 12 . Very well done, I'm very happy you got it figured out and thanks for the kind words.

chris -

How do you determine your Choke Guide location for a Reduction Train?

From what I gleaned from your posts on this thread:
1.) Mount the reel to the rod and make a taught line from the reel spool axel angle to where it crosses the blank? Place your Choke Guide in this location as a starter? (Similar to NGC - right?)
2.) Select the KR Reduction Train Group according to the Line size and Type you want to use. (This is KR more than NGC ideas)
3.) Place this Reduction Train Group to follow the taught line leading to the Choker location.
4.) Reduction Train Guides are spaced depending on the angle of the line to the Choker, and this is 100% reel height dependent, for this group of guides ONLY. (Running guides are a separate group and have their own spacing.) So, a taller reel will space the RTG differently than a shorter one.

5.) This goes back to the light line on a large reel discussion: Do you ever use a larger butt guide than the KR line size group determines because of reel height/angle considerations relative to the Choker? I could see a point where I might only 'need' a KL-H20, yet prefer the 25 for spacing purposes.

I enjoy getting into the weeds a bit - I like to explore the areas where one idea or concept excels and where it doesn't work as well as another concept. For example, where the KR Concept may be great for lighter braided line, BUT NOT where rougher conditions or treatment of rods is likely.

While I don't have access to surf fishing here in Kansas (rats), I fish with friends who target large catfish and striper with long casts and heavier rigs. I feel like it is a related kind of fishing to surf and salt.

I re-read this whole thread today and think there is so much gold to be mined here. Back to the original OP, understanding where the KR Concept excels and where it does not can be informative and useful.

I have followed the KR concept calculations for my inshore rods that use KR Concept single foots because Fuji did a great job with it and it just flat out works . There's very little tweaking you can do that will improve on it .


Now with the RV's I find Tom Kirkman's 27 X method ideal for figuring out the best choke guide location . I typically start where the 27X method indicates and adjust forward or backward based on my line choice which typically has me moving the choke further toward the reel .

I attach the reel to the reel seat and remove the spool , I then just turn the rod /reel upside down with the reel on top and fasten the entire rod & reel to the rod building table so it's secure and level . I then take a long piece of braided line and tie one end to the spool axles tip ( Axle is positioned approx mid stroke ) and then attach the other end to the top of the choke guide and make sure the braid is taught .

This provides me with the line angle I need to properly position the heights of the guides . First guide will be the highest of course which is closest to the reel where the height of the taught string will also be highest . I then start moving toward the choke guide placing guides along the blank based on what the line angle is showing me . I want the top of the guide ring just about touching the bottom of the taught line .

The end goal is to use as few reduction guides as possible that have the appropriate height but also the appropriate ring size that will have the biggest impact on choking down the line as quickly as possible . The only way to really figure this out is tons of test casting with different guide ring sizes and placements . The overwhelming majority of people will just go with something they know will work well , nothing wrong with that but to truly have the ultimate performing setup you need to determine what size ring will allow unobstructed line flow but also not be too large which allows way too much movement for the line inside the ring and that wastes energy. Going too small is just as bad and will also impact line flow negatively .


My advice , just follow what the Fuji KR concept data shows and adjust to your preference . Fuji intended for their KR concept data to ease concerns and make things as simple as possible but in reality so many people find it unnecessarily confusing and that's unfortunate .

chris -

Thank you for the information based on your testing and experience. I appreciate and value your responses to my specific, in-the-weeds questions.

The KR Concept makes intuitive sense to me, and works very well on the rods I have built with it over the last few years. It feels strange to me that I have been building rods since I was a teenager in the 1970's and am just now catching up to the KR Concepts developed around 2012. Late to the party as usual. Perhaps those were the years I was occupied with other things....

I studied and built many spinning rods based on the NGC which was a real eye-opener compared to Cone-Of-Flight and larger guides of even ultra-light rods in the 80's and 90's. I have a factory rod made by GLoomis (model SJR 782 Medium GLX) that is 6'6" with six guides and a tip top. When I look down the Reduction Train Guides, they DO make a 'Bullseye' on the first running guide which is a #6 ring. Nothing bad about this rod at all....just different than I would build the same blank today.

KRC is based on the NGC, which I have been familiar with for a long time now. It makes sense the two concepts are related, AND also different.

Thank you for helping me see some of the nuances between these two theories.

Les

I have a tendency to scan an entire comment and get a general idea to what somebody's asking instead of addressing very specific questions so lets try this again .

Les - " Do you ever use a larger butt guide than the KR line size group determines because of reel height/angle considerations relative to the Choker? I could see a point where I might only 'need' a KL-H20, yet prefer the 25 for spacing purposes"

Chris- Actually , the ring size for the butt guide is decided on long before the purchase of many of the components . I never waiver when it comes to the butt guide on my surf rods I know exactly what size I need for max performance before even purchasing it . I have never went into a build without being absolutely certain it will work exactly the way I need it to work . If any guides get switched around etc... it will never be the butt guide it will be something else. I'm not talking butt guide placement which is often adjusted and tested I'm speaking specifically on size .


Butt guide choice determines how well everything else is going to work so don't make a mistake on that one. Sure, most any butt guide size of the appropriate height will work but picking a size that is not too large and not too small for the specific reel and line type and size you will be using with it will determine just how good it can be.


Les- I enjoy getting into the weeds a bit - I like to explore the areas where one idea or concept excels and where it doesn't work as well as another concept. For example, where the KR Concept may be great for lighter braided line, BUT NOT where rougher conditions or treatment of rods is likely.

Chris- Yes , I can tell you like the weeds a bit . There is no better system than the KR Concept system when it comes to fishing lighter braids imo . When I said the KR Concept guides are not a good choice for people who tend to be hard on their gear I was specifically talking about the single foot KR Concept guides . Although I did build a surf rod with those guides and they perform extremely well they just aren't built to stand up to typical surf fishing conditions .

The RV double foots however are as tough as they come and they allow people to build true surf specific KR Concept rods . The cost is what kills their appeal .

Thank you, Chris!

You've again clarified my thinking and answered many, weedy questions.

I found your statement that choosing the Butt Guide Ring Size ahead of time very informative. From this, I surmise that:

* Line Type Determines Butt Guide Ring Size.
* Reel Height Determines Butt Guide Location.

That clicks.

Since the KR GPS only goes so far in reel size (not into the larger reels used in surf casting) you have shown me a way to figure out how the KRC can work outside the box. It is similar to the NGC with important differences:

* NGC is primarily about matching guide height to the centerline/upsweep of the spool axel in the reduction train. The size of the ring is secondary to the height of the ring. (Thinking of the venerable Fuji BYAG guides here)
* KRC is about matching guide height AND ring size, simultaneously, for optimum efficiency for a Specified Line Type. (As you stated, too large or too small a ring, for a particular line type, is not efficient nor optimal.)

You mentioned that you find 27X useful with the RV's. Interesting. Why do you think that is?

Les- Line Type Determines Butt Guide Ring Size.

Chris- Not just line type but reel specs and spool diameter also comes into play they just come in secondary to line type and size .

Les- * Reel Height Determines Butt Guide Location.

Chris- It's a mix of both the spinning reels main shaft centerline and line type / diameter .

Les - NGC is primarily about matching guide height to the centerline/upsweep of the spool axel in the reduction train. The size of the ring is secondary to the height of the ring. (Thinking of the venerable Fuji BYAG guides here) * KRC is about matching guide height AND ring size, simultaneously, for optimum efficiency for a Specified Line Type. (As you stated, too large or too small a ring, for a particular line type, is not efficient nor optimal.)

Chris - A proper NGC build will result in a bullseye pattern when looking through the guides . A KR concept build will also result in the same bullseye pattern the difference is that the KR Concept build will choke down the line a lot sooner than most NGC builds . If one plans to use heavier lines a NGC build is the way to go .


You mentioned that you find 27X useful with the RV's. Interesting. Why do you think that is?


Well the 27 X method just flat out never disappoints and I wanted to see what those calculations showed with my build . Of course as I always do I tested many different locations and even different height and ring size variations of the choke guide to determine what worked best . I went a little taller and larger to a little smaller and shorter in choke guide sizing and moved them around to determine optimal placement . In the end Toms 27X method was close to where I found the choke to be optimally placed .

chris c nash Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> That's great Ken , sounds like you understand
> exactly what's going on , a 30, 20 ,10 will work
> very very well for what you want to do and you
> still managed to avoid using the 25 ,the 16 and
> the 12 . Very well done, I'm very happy you got
> it figured out and thanks for the kind words.


For those interested I was able to field test the KW30/20/10 with a KW8 as the choker guide on an 8ft 20-30lb spinning outfit and it casted live bait wonderfully and served up the last meal for several pelagic fishes. Again, not a true rapid reduction train by Fuji definition, but similar and still effective if you want to use the heavier, double footed KW type guides.