Super confused. I’m measuring my reel spool diameter at 47 mm x 27 = 1,269mm. That converts to 49.9 inches. My rod I’m building on is 6’ in length so with those numbers I’m roughly left with 10” of rod for running guides (that’s a rough measurement. It may be an inch or two more or less.) Am I doing something wrong? I feel like that’s a small amount of space to put three running guides.

Also, I’m measuring the top lip of the spool (closest to the drag) should I be measuring the bottom lip (closest to where the line will be laying) as it tapers down slightly. If I go by measurements at that location it’s giving me roughly 14 inches of rod left.

If I am using the table method (where the rod intersects the edge of the table) the choke location is 39” up from the reel and it gives me almost 20” of rod left to fill the 3 running guides on. I feel that is a bit too much space.

This is my first spinning rod I’m building and my first time using the kr concept.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2023 01:46AM by Al purvis.

It's fine. The length of rod "left for running guides" is of no importance. If you have no room left for running guides, that's fine. If you have 3 feet left for running guides, that's also fine. The is no requirement for any amount of running guides. The running guides are simply there to provide adequate stress distribution beyond the amount of rod length utilized for line control between the reel spool and the choke guide. In some cases where you have a short rod coupled with a large size spinning reel, the tiptop ends up being the choke guide with no running guides whatsoever.

.........

The 27X method is for estimating the choke point for the NGC not for the KR concept.
For a 6’ rod, the KR GPS at Anglers Resource does not do a great job. In my opinion, it puts the the choke guide to close the butt guide and does not use not enough guides. However, for longer rods it’s does a good job.
I have no idea what you will use this rod for. However, if you are using a 1000 to 3000 size reel with light braid or light mono, I would use KL16H, KL8H and KL5.5M guides for the reduction train (or their equivalents), followed by five KB/KT running guides (or their equivalents) in a size 4, 4.5 or 5. Place the butt guide about 19” (48 cm) in front of the reel spool, then place the choke guide (first running guide) about 20” to 21” (51 cm to 53 cm) in front of the butt guide. Place the remaining reduction guides progressively between the butt and choke guides. Place the running guide closest to the tip top about 3.5” to 4” (9 cm to 10 cm) away from the tip top. Place the remaining running guides progressively between this guide and the choke guide. Don’t be afraid to move the choke and/or butt guide in or out a little to get the spacing you like. There is a lot of flexibility in setting up a guide train. Once the guides are in place do a two line static test to fine tune the placement. If you have any questions just ask.
Norm

Al, it appears you are using NGC rather than KR Concept for spacing. If you are going with KR concept, I’d suggest using the KR guide placement software available on the Anglers Resource Website. A quick check with the software shows the choke guide would be placed approximately 36” from the tip of the reels spool. Close to the “table method” of the NGC. Like Norman has said, the KR concept often needs an additional 1-2 more running guides for shorter rods. I built a 6’6” trout rod according to the KR software and I definitely needed atleast 1 additional guide. That said it casts like a dream and static test is good, but it could’ve been better. Learned my lesson. I now always buy 1-2 guides more than I think I’ll need.

If you are using the NGC, the table method can be used concurrent with 27x for choker guide location. This process can be read here: [www.rodbuilding.org]

In this instance, determine the choke location through the 27x method and use that as your rotation point to align the tip of the spool axle with a straight edge, then space the reduction guides accordingly. It’s not uncommon to only have 3 reduction guides to the tip as long as everything is spaced accordingly and verified through a stress test, test casting, and guide alignment.

If strictly using NGC and building according to a specific reel axle angle, then I’d follow this for the table method: [www.rodbuilding.org]

As Tom has said both are correct. if using larger guides on a shorter rod your choke location will be the tip.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2023 10:37AM by Evan Cobb.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's fine. The length of rod "left for running
> guides" is of no importance. If you have no room
> left for running guides, that's fine. If you have
> 3 feet left for running guides, that's also fine.
> The is no requirement for any amount of running
> guides. The running guides are simply there to
> provide adequate stress distribution beyond the
> amount of rod length utilized for line control
> between the reel spool and the choke guide. In
> some cases where you have a short rod coupled with
> a large size spinning reel, the tiptop ends up
> being the choke guide with no running guides
> whatsoever.
>
> .........

Thanks for the response Tom. Not to be knit picky or anything but regarding where I’m measuring my reel spool at can you help me there? The top lip and bottom lip of the spool are two different measurements. I was a little confused when I read your article because you had mentioned front lip I believe. My reel spool from the top lip (closest to the drag knob) ramps down to a bottom lip (just before where all the line lays)

After reading norms response I realized my mistake. I’m trying to use the kr concept and somehow have been using instructions for NGC in the process. For future reference I still am curious about the reel question!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2023 10:52AM by Al purvis.

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The 27X method is for estimating the choke point
> for the NGC not for the KR concept.
> For a 6’ rod, the KR GPS at Anglers Resource
> does not do a great job. In my opinion, it puts
> the the choke guide to close the butt guide and
> does not use not enough guides. However, for
> longer rods it’s does a good job.
> I have no idea what you will use this rod for.
> However, if you are using a 1000 to 3000 size reel
> with light braid or light mono, I would use KL16H,
> KL8H and KL5.5M guides for the reduction train (or
> their equivalents), followed by five KB/KT running
> guides (or their equivalents) in a size 4, 4.5 or
> 5. Place the butt guide about 19” (48 cm) in
> front of the reel spool, then place the choke
> guide (first running guide) about 20” to 21”
> (51 cm to 53 cm) in front of the butt guide. Place
> the remaining reduction guides progressively
> between the butt and choke guides. Place the
> running guide closest to the tip top about 3.5”
> to 4” (9 cm to 10 cm) away from the tip top.
> Place the remaining running guides progressively
> between this guide and the choke guide. Don’t be
> afraid to move the choke and/or butt guide in or
> out a little to get the spacing you like. There is
> a lot of flexibility in setting up a guide train.
> Once the guides are in place do a two line static
> test to fine tune the placement. If you have any
> questions just ask.
> Norm

Norm,

Thanks for clarifying! I somehow was assuming the rod maker article I had saved was for the kr concept. Thanks for your response you saved me a lot of confusion haha

Some info…

Michael,

Thanks for the diagrams for all of us that supplement our learning with pictures!

What is the URL or link to that diagram?

Les

I'm with Les. I'd like to know where this diagram originally came from.

I found it on Fuji’s Japan site… you’ll need to use google translate unless your fluent in Japanese. The pic I always post I had google translate and saved to my phone for reference.

[www.fujitackle.com]

Al,
Simply put, listen to, acknowledge and adopt Norman’s suggestions!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

This may be the same article in English

[www.guidesnblanks.com]

Keep in mind that any spool upsweep is simply used as a "target" of sorts for guide set-up. Spool upsweep does not send the line out on any particular angle. Line is pulled from the spool, not shot out of it like a cannon or rifle. In effect, spool upsweep plays little to no role in how the line leaves the reel. The upsweep is there to help keep the line from hitting the lower lip of the spool as it is pulled upward to the butt guide. It does not direct the line.

............

Thank you, Michael!

I found the site! There is a wealth of information in that search zone of, "Fuji KR Concept." Fuji's diagrams and descriptions, on the same page, are very helpful for a visual learner like me. IMO, this is another aspect of the genius of Fuji to produce such simple yet detailed educational materials for understanding their concepts.

Understanding the Concepts are the first and most valuable thing for any Guide Placement question for me. The more I can grasp and internalize the Concepts, the more freedom I have to adapt, experiment, and play.

Guide sizes, types, and designs make more and more sense the more I learn. It can be overwhelming at times because Fuji, for one, is constantly changing, adding, deleting, and re-naming their products. I understand better now because their R&D (like rust) never sleeps. And they don't seem to be shy about sharing what they have discovered even though it can upset the apple cart for awhile.

The Concepts remain the same. I re-learn them all the time.

Ray, that’s the same info… in english! I saved it. Thanks for that.

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The 27X method is for estimating the choke point
> for the NGC not for the KR concept.
> For a 6’ rod, the KR GPS at Anglers Resource
> does not do a great job. In my opinion, it puts
> the the choke guide to close the butt guide and
> does not use not enough guides. However, for
> longer rods it’s does a good job.
> I have no idea what you will use this rod for.
> However, if you are using a 1000 to 3000 size reel
> with light braid or light mono, I would use KL16H,
> KL8H and KL5.5M guides for the reduction train (or
> their equivalents), followed by five KB/KT running
> guides (or their equivalents) in a size 4, 4.5 or
> 5. Place the butt guide about 19” (48 cm) in
> front of the reel spool, then place the choke
> guide (first running guide) about 20” to 21”
> (51 cm to 53 cm) in front of the butt guide. Place
> the remaining reduction guides progressively
> between the butt and choke guides. Place the
> running guide closest to the tip top about 3.5”
> to 4” (9 cm to 10 cm) away from the tip top.
> Place the remaining running guides progressively
> between this guide and the choke guide. Don’t be
> afraid to move the choke and/or butt guide in or
> out a little to get the spacing you like. There is
> a lot of flexibility in setting up a guide train.
> Once the guides are in place do a two line static
> test to fine tune the placement. If you have any
> questions just ask.
> Norm


What is the KR method for estimating the choke? I know there is the anglers resource tool, I am just curious to what the actual technique is and how it differs from NGC if you could elaborate.

Francis - For the KR concept, Fuji suggests multiplying the distance of the butt guide to the tip top by about .45 and placing the choke guide at this distance in front of the butt guide.
[anglersresource.net]
The KRGPS at Anglers Resource uses an average factor of .42 to calculate the choke position. In either case, the choke point becomes a movable point. For example, the longer the rod the a longer the reduction train length (distance from butt guide to choke guide). This is fine because it helps prevent the use of excess running guides, and the rod still performs great. However, if it is also valid to think that once you have found the best reduction train length for a given rod length and reel combination, then you can keep this reduction train length constant no matter the rod length; you just use fewer runners on short rods and more runners on longer rods. As expected, there are trade offs and compromises involved depending on personal preferences and performances. I should state that using a numerical factor to calculate reduction train length does not work very with very short rods (6’ and shorter), the reduction train length becomes too short for optimal performance. I have observed with these short rods, Fuji tends to make reduction train length longer than that calculated. For short rods, I tend to make the distances from the reel spool to the choke guide and the reduction train length about the same length (19”-21”) and it works great.
Since I like progressive spacing, I will move the calculated choke point in or out in order to get the progressive spacing I like. As I’ve mentioned many time before, there is a lot of flexibility in laying out a well performing guide train.
Hope this helps
Norm

This is one of the issues I have with the KR and KRGPS methods. The location of the choke guide should not change based on rod length. The optimum butt and choke guide locations depend the reel and line, not rod length. For the same reel and line, but two rods of different lengths, the butt and choke guide positions from the reel should be identical.

........

Tom, you and I differ somewhat on this. I do believe that reel height and line type and size are important in determining guide placement. However, I have no problems with the choke point being a movable point on a KR concept rod. When the KR concept first came out I did a lot of testing in order to better understand it. Using an invariant reduction guide length vs movable reduction guide lengths on various length (5.5’ to 9’) rods using the same reel and braided line, casting distances were very similar. However, using an invariant reduction train length the extra guides in the tip section of longer rods, to me, gave a less responsive feel to the rod. I believe that choke point placement is more of a suggestion than a point that is fix in place and invariant. My studies firmly convinced me that setting up a KR guide train is very flexible and choke points can be moved in or out (within reason) with out affecting performance. I do final guide adjustments using the static test and looking at line flow though the guides.
I also believe the 27x method you described is also a suggestion for choke guide placement. You determined it by averaging choke point positions obtained using reels having various upsweep angles, and spool diameters. As you already know, moving the 27X choke pt in or out to accommodate guide spacing makes very little difference in rod performance.
As most of you know, I really like the KR concept. Once I started using it I never looked back. However, I freely admit that I use braided line almost exclusively on my spinning reels and braid is a very forgiving line to fish. It’s a personal preference, something that makes custom rod building custom.
Norm

Francis -

As far as how the NGC is different from the 'newer' KR Concept?

As I understand it, the KR Concept is a sub set of NGC ideas. Both work and are useful. Both are an improvement on Cone of Flight ideas in most cases. I see KR as a refinement, or addition, to the overall NGC concepts in response to two innovations that took hold several years ago:

Micro Guides
and
Braided Line

The distinguishing factors for the KR Concept vs the NGC from my learning:

* Smaller Diameter Ring Sizes and High Frame Guides are used to reduce line slap and friction with minimal weight.
* "Guide Groups" were designed to 'automatically' manage line in a straight line path (bulls eye) - taking out the guesswork of what works.
* Tangle Free frame designs reduce knots around guides.
* "Rapid Choke" keeps the critical tip section as long and light as possible, and places the heavier reduction train guides closer to the butt section.
* There are suggested Guide Groups for different types and tests of line, based on video evidence.
* KR Concept applies to both single foot and double foot guides.
* Reel size and type, and Line size and type, are the critical factors to overall performance more than rod length. So, with the exact-same reel, you can create the same, or similar, guide train with rods of varying lengths.

Of course, this does not preclude the importance of testing and tweaking to suit your needs. Different rods have different Actions, Tapers, and Powers. So, adjustments are reasonable and to be expected.

That's how I see and understand KR in the context of NGC. The Concepts of efficient line control, reduced friction/line slap, and minimizing weight are the main take away for me. The advantages of KR that it is also easier to make choices about which guides to use (Groups) and where to place them (GPS) for a variety of fishing conditions is a huge bonus. It is not a panacea that covers all needs and situations. I don't think it was ever meant to be. In fact, it is a relatively self-limiting concept built around lighter mono, fluoro and braided lines. I value this distinction and detail.

Short rods (6' and under) are a bit different, but do not fall outside the KR Concept altogether. As Norman shared, a few tweaks based on testing yields great results. There are always anomalies to every rule.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2023 12:28PM by Les Cline.