Sorry if I missed this in the search but quick question I need the groups wisdom on - will I be ok to use 3.5 micros using 8-10 braid to 8-10 flouro? I've built a few rods with 4's and had no problems, but need a nudge to go down to the 3.5's.

Details, guides I'm looking at are the Seaguide TiMKG 3.5's with the RS ring. Not sure what the ID measures, not provided in the info I could find.

Appreciate the feedback.

It's all about the knots you need to pass. Ask the makers of the guides you're considering what the ID's are. I doubt if going from 4 to 3.4 will create a problem. If the ID change is the same as the OD the difference is only .020 inches.

On the other hand, if 4's are working fine, why bother going smaller?. The advantages of smaller cannot be really significant. I expect going from SS to Ti will be more important than going from 4 to 3.5.

What are you trying to accomplish by going from 4 to 3.5?

Michael, to see the performance difference of going smaller search back and see the work Steve Gardner did in the M&M’s post several years back. It does indeed make a difference. As you stated if his knot will pass that’s the critical question, yet there is definitely a performance improvement ( casting length) from 4’s to 3.5’s.

Have a great and safe weekend

I've tested my 4's with 30 lb Sufix 832 connected to 20 lb flouro (.018") with an alberto knot, and it casted fine. I wouldn't say it was flawless, you could here is clicking through, but it would comfortably pass through the 4's and casted reasonably with a 3/8 jig and trailer. So I'm thinking 3.5's should be fine setup with 10 braid to 8 flouro via alberto knot. Just hoping to hear some success stories to confirm.

I haven't read the Gardner posts, I'll have look at that. My main reason for going to 3.5's is the same reason I'm building a rod from scratch in the first place, to maximize performance, though I understand I probably couldn't tell the difference on a blind test.

On the scale though (according to Seaguide) the 3.5's are half the weight of the 4's, .02 grams compared to .04. So in total, assuming I'm using 5 runners, I'd be saving .1g, which is the equivalent to leaving off 2.5 size 4 guides. Again, I understand I'm talking tenths of a gram here and these weights won't really be perceivable while fishing, but from a numbers stand point it's hard to not try the 3.5's if others have had success with them.

Bob McKamey in M &M Vol. 5 wrote about two identical 6 ft. smallmouth spinning rods his son Hunter built, one New Guide Concept for other after work by Pat Vinzant. The Vinzant design has 3 mm running guides, They tested the rods with 10 lb. braid with 8 ft of 10 lb. fluoro tied in and wound on the reel. the Vinzant rod outperformed the other rod by a considerable amount and was a dead heat when throwing P Line Fluroclear on the reel. Info is spread out through the M & M volume mentioned above.

Go as small as you can get away with , all my surf rods have size 5 runners on them and it's a night and day difference from the overwhelming majority of surf rods out there that usually have size 8's at a minimum with size 10 to 12 being more standard . Fuji makes it clear in their literature that size 3.5 is the smallest anybody should ever go and the reason is going smaller than that could end up being detrimental .

Fuji was using stiff fluro on purpose to give a worst-case scenario. Bob M. reported the lines and knot "flew through" the guides on the Pat V. setup using what Joe B. is using. Bob M. and Hunter M. both are long term builders and tourney anglers, and work for Mudhole, Bob used to own Custom Tackle before moving over to Mudhole. Hunter does the rod building vids for Mudhole.

Thanks for all the input. Very informative to hear about these test cases. I will definitely be trying some 3.5s when I can get my hands on some. I doubt there will be much to report compared to the Bob M info but I will share anything notable.

Newbie question: What is M&M and where can I read the different volumes? Is it Rodmaker Mag? Thanks

Hello All..

Too small for my old eyes, both tying on and threading on the boat or bank.

Tight Wraps & Tighter Lines.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.

They are right here in the search each are many pages long and extensive findings and opinions from many builders deversifies the info.

I’m missing something…I’m not getting any results when searching “M&M” for all dates.

What’s keywords are you searching for results?

Joe, what are you trying to accomplish by going from 4 to 3.5?

If one wants to see an objective number which shows how different guides affect the recovery speed of the rod they can do True Natural Frequency test.

It appears that testing showed longer casts for the smaller guides. Was it because they were smaller (ID) or because they were lighter?

This may be the post that was referred to: [www.rodbuilding.org]

With all due respect, I don't think this testing is truly rigorous enough to use to conclude that 3.5 guides will cast farther than 4 mm guides.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2023 07:14AM by Michael Danek.

The old posts for M&M were "Micro Maniacs"

The posts from 2008 show up in a search using maniacs

For bass rods, the vast majority of the performance gain comes from dropping from 6mm down to 4mm guides. From there, it is a process of diminishing returns. I love my rods that have 3 mm running guides, but I can’t say that they offer any true advantage while fishing. Over the years I’ve settled on 4mm as being the sweet spot.

I regularly pass well trimmed nail knot bobber stops on 6lb mono through 3mm ceramic guides, so I have little doubt that you’ll have issues with appropriate knots on the 3.5mm guides.

The best advice is to build the rod out and see for yourself how it performs. If you read through all of the M&M’s threads, pay attention to the words of the late Bill Stevens and Alex D. They are both very sharp builders who are/were successful in building custom bass rods for tourney guys.