The grip and reel seat are already on the butt of the rod. This is a fly rod. The fighting butt is added onto the rear of the reel seat. The distance from the grip to the rod tip remains unchanged.

...........

I was under the impression that he wants to extend a 9’ rod to make a 9 1/2’ rod and then build it as a 9 1/2’ rod with a 3 1/2” fighting butt. For either a 9’ rod or 91/2’ rod, the total handle length would be about 15” long (3.5”+4”+7.5”=15”). So for a 9’ rod the distance from the front of the handle to the tip top is 93”, for a 9 1/2’ rod it’s 99”. So as expected, there is a 6” difference in length. How much this difference affects rod performance I don’t know.
Norm

Norm, kinda what I gathered as well. What's not clear is was he planning to add the length just to account for the fighting butt. Maybe alittle more info is needed.

Build on blank as ya would normally without fighting butt and add 3.5" blank extension to add fighting butt. Basically building on a 9'3 1/2" blank.
Usable length from top of grip around 8'+/-.(just ballparking 12" for grip and seat)
Not "losing" any blank and not changing the action.
Or
If your set on building on a 9'6" blank just extend blank 6" and usable blank above grip will be around 8'2 1/2 which I doubt will make a major real world difference in action. The blank will be faster on paper but the stiffness and recovery isn't changed so I can't see how it would make a difference on takes.

Edited to correct my math...lol...



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2023 11:38AM by Matt Ruggie.

It's not quite clear if he intends to extend the blank itself and move the handle and seat back, or extend the finished rod with a fighting butt. Perhaps a more detailed explanation would result in a better consensus of whether or not what he wants to do is wise.

.........

The plan is to extend the blank far enough to add a fixed fighting butt, without losing any of the working length of the blank. I like a fast blank, and thought I might increase the speed, a litte bit. I'll be using a 4" butt, instead of 3 1/2", so; the rod would effectively be a 9" 2", with a 4" butt.

George Forster
Fort Collins, CO



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2023 10:53PM by George Forster.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kerry,
>
> Yes, I've done several articles on lever mechanics
> in the magazine. They do not apply in this
> instance however.
>
> Perhaps you're not familiar with fly rods and
> fighting butts. You will still hold the rod at the
> same point - the grip determines that, not the
> fighting butt length. No matter how long the
> fighting butt is, the grip you hold to cast and
> fight the fish with will be in the same location.
> The distance from your grip to the tip of the rod
> will remain the same. A fighting butt is simply a
> plug-in onto the rear of the reel seat. No matter
> how long the fighting butt is, the reel seat and
> grip remain in the same place.
>
> .................
You can spin it any way you want, no pun intended. but you add length 3 1/2" or 6" to the rod and that fighting butt is implanted on your chest or Gut for the pivot point, it changes the moment arm regardless where your hand is placed. Just talking about the math involved (STATICS) and not fishing techniques.

When you add length to a rod and wonder how it will affect the rod, you have to take into account where you are adding the additional length and how you will be using it. Your hand is the "point of effort" and its location certainly does make a difference.

In the article on Stand-Up Rods, the sidebar and illustrations depicted two rods, both fitted with the same length handle.The point of effort was the same on both rods. The only thing different was the length of the rod BEYOND the angler’s point of effort. In that case, yes, the shorter rod will bring more mechanical advantage back to the angler. And yes, as the rod flexes the effective lever becomes yet shorter and even more mechanical advantage returns to the angler.

In the case of a fly rod fitted with a fighting butt on the rear of the rod, the distance from the point of effort to the rod tip remains unchanged. If you fight the fish off the hand/wrist, nothing changes in terms of mechanical advantage for the angler or the fish. However, if you put the fighting butt in your gut and use that point as the fulcrum, then yes the angler will recover some mechanical advantage.

The OP didn’t really state the purpose of adding the fighting butt to his fly rod project. If it was simply to make the rod longer it will, but nothing will change in terms of casting distance, presentation, hook setting, etc. If he is seeking a mechanical advantage he can get it IF he uses the fighting butt in his gut as the fulcrum, or he can simply utilize a shorter rod from the outset. That additional information would be valuable in providing the best answer for his particular use of the rod.

… ……

Re: Adding Legth to a 9" 11 wt. Musky Rod new
Posted by: Kerry Hansen (---.wavecable.com)
Date: April 15, 2023 10:09PM

You can spin it any way you want, no pun intended. but you add length 3 1/2" or 6" to the rod and that fighting butt is implanted on your chest or Gut for the pivot point, it changes the moment arm regardless where your hand is placed. Just talking about the math involved (STATICS) and not fishing techniques.

> .................


INCORRECT! Where you place your hand to fight the fish makes a HUGE difference. This is why we see so many saltwater fly rodders move their hand up beyond the grip to gain advantage on the fish. And this is also why you see so many broken saltwater fly rods!

George Forster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The plan is to extend the blank far enough to add
> a fixed fighting butt, without losing any of the
> working length of the blank. I like a fast blank,
> and thought I might increase the speed, a litte
> bit. I'll be using a 4" butt, instead of 3 1/2",
> so; the rod would effectively be a 9" 2", with a
> 4" butt.


George,

There are three items in play - the fulcrum, the fisherman’s point of effort and the load (fish). Move any one of them and you change things.

Here’s the simple math when you are fighting a fish. Custom rod builders should copy this and keep it in their shop for reference - The load times its distance from the fulcrum is equal to the effort times its distance from the fulcrum.

....................

George Forster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The plan is to extend the blank far enough to add
> a fixed fighting butt, without losing any of the
> working length of the blank. I like a fast blank,
> and thought I might increase the speed, a litte
> bit. I'll be using a 4" butt, instead of 3 1/2",
> so; the rod would effectively be a 9" 2", with a
> 4" butt.

My math was off in my post but I corrected. Either way I doubt you'll feel a noticeable difference absorbing the shock of the musky hits. I used to extend 6'6" blanks often before 6'8" became a common blank option. Ya really don't feel a difference in action IMO but technically on paper the blank is faster actioned.

Mike Ballard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Re: Adding Legth to a 9" 11 wt. Musky Rod new
> Posted by: Kerry Hansen (---.wavecable.com)
> Date: April 15, 2023 10:09PM
>
> You can spin it any way you want, no pun intended.
> but you add length 3 1/2" or 6" to the rod and
> that fighting butt is implanted on your chest or
> Gut for the pivot point, it changes the moment arm
> regardless where your hand is placed. Just talking
> about the math involved (STATICS) and not fishing
> techniques.
>
> > .................
>
>
> INCORRECT! Where you place your hand to fight the
> fish makes a HUGE difference. This is why we see
> so many saltwater fly rodders move their hand up
> beyond the grip to gain advantage on the fish. And
> this is also why you see so many broken saltwater
> fly rods!


Yes it is correct, you don't understand the moment arm math.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> George Forster Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The plan is to extend the blank far enough to
> add
> > a fixed fighting butt, without losing any of
> the
> > working length of the blank. I like a fast
> blank,
> > and thought I might increase the speed, a litte
> > bit. I'll be using a 4" butt, instead of 3
> 1/2",
> > so; the rod would effectively be a 9" 2", with
> a
> > 4" butt.
>
>
> George,
>
> There are three items in play - the fulcrum, the
> fisherman’s point of effort and the load (fish).
> Move any one of them and you change things.
>
> Here’s the simple math when you are fighting a
> fish. Custom rod builders should copy this and
> keep it in their shop for reference - The load
> times its distance from the fulcrum is equal to
> the effort times its distance from the fulcrum.
>
> ....................


EXACTLY!

I also remember on this site, the discussion of a particular guide weighing a GRAM more, LOL!

Kerry,

Your hand is the point of effort. Move that and it will definitely make a difference. Mike is correct.

............

Kerry Hansen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mike Ballard Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Re: Adding Legth to a 9" 11 wt. Musky Rod new
> > Posted by: Kerry Hansen (---.wavecable.com)
> > Date: April 15, 2023 10:09PM
> >
> > You can spin it any way you want, no pun
> intended.
> > but you add length 3 1/2" or 6" to the rod and
> > that fighting butt is implanted on your chest
> or
> > Gut for the pivot point, it changes the moment
> arm
> > regardless where your hand is placed. Just
> talking
> > about the math involved (STATICS) and not
> fishing
> > techniques.
> >
> > > .................
> >
> >
> > INCORRECT! Where you place your hand to fight
> the
> > fish makes a HUGE difference. This is why we
> see
> > so many saltwater fly rodders move their hand
> up
> > beyond the grip to gain advantage on the fish.
> And
> > this is also why you see so many broken
> saltwater
> > fly rods!
>
>
> Yes it is correct, you don't understand the moment
> arm math.


Kerry Try this-

1. Get a broomstick about 4 to 5 feet long.
2. Tie about 10 pounds of something to one end.
3. Put the other end in your gut.
4. Put your hand one-foot from the butt and lift the ten pounds off the floor.
5. Now slip your hand up about two or more feet from the butt and lift the ten pounds off the floor.
6. Note that when you moved your hand forward it became much easier to lift those ten pounds.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kerry,
>
> Your hand is the point of effort. Move that and it
> will definitely make a difference. Mike is
> correct.
>
> ............

Tom, I said he was incorrect when he said I was wrong to state that adding length to rod will change the moment arm. Also moving hand up on the rod itself will create a shear point, a step function and that is why the rod will break or explode at that point, so be cautious in doing so. Sturgeon fishermen have found that out when a well intentioned individual comes over the give a guy a HAND when he is struggling with a big one and helps pull against the fish by grabbing the rod up ahead of the grip.

Kerry Hansen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tom Kirkman Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Kerry,
> >
> > Your hand is the point of effort. Move that and
> it
> > will definitely make a difference. Mike is
> > correct.
> >
> > ............
>
> Tom, I said he was incorrect when he said I was
> wrong to state that adding length to rod will
> change the moment arm. Also moving hand up on the
> rod itself will create a shear point, a step
> function and that is why the rod will break or
> explode at that point, so be cautious in doing so.
> Sturgeon fishermen have found that out when a well
> intentioned individual comes over the give a guy a
> HAND when he is struggling with a big one and
> helps pull against the fish by grabbing the rod up
> ahead of the grip.


Kerry- I never said that adding length to the rod didn't change the moment arm. You said that where you placed your hand on the rod did not make any difference. I said that it did. I was correct and if you will try the test I outlined you will realize it.

Mike Ballard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kerry Hansen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Mike Ballard Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Re: Adding Legth to a 9" 11 wt. Musky Rod new
> > > Posted by: Kerry Hansen (---.wavecable.com)
> > > Date: April 15, 2023 10:09PM
> > >
> > > You can spin it any way you want, no pun
> > intended.
> > > but you add length 3 1/2" or 6" to the rod
> and
> > > that fighting butt is implanted on your chest
> > or
> > > Gut for the pivot point, it changes the
> moment
> > arm
> > > regardless where your hand is placed. Just
> > talking
> > > about the math involved (STATICS) and not
> > fishing
> > > techniques.
> > >
> > > > .................
> > >
> > >
> > > INCORRECT! Where you place your hand to fight
> > the
> > > fish makes a HUGE difference. This is why we
> > see
> > > so many saltwater fly rodders move their hand
> > up
> > > beyond the grip to gain advantage on the
> fish.
> > And
> > > this is also why you see so many broken
> > saltwater
> > > fly rods!
> >
> >
> > Yes it is correct, you don't understand the
> moment
> > arm math.
>
>
> Kerry Try this-
>
> 1. Get a broomstick about 4 to 5 feet long.
> 2. Tie about 10 pounds of something to one end.
> 3. Put the other end in your gut.
> 4. Put your hand one-foot from the butt and lift
> the ten pounds off the floor.
> 5. Now slip your hand up about two or more feet
> from the butt and lift the ten pounds off the
> floor.
> 6. Note that when you moved your hand forward it
> became much easier to lift those ten pounds.


I understand all of this! What you are missing regardless where the hand is placed, the moment arms have changed and the resultant force you must exert on the rod has to change to equal what the fish is pulling to be in equilibrium. then when you increase your force from this equilibrium, it will raise the tip of the rod whether it is a "Broom Stick" or a flexed rod with it's "effective " moment arm! Just sterile math "STATICS" regardless of technique as I have stated.

To refresh your memory, you wrote this--- "You can spin it any way you want, no pun intended. but you add length 3 1/2" or 6" to the rod and that fighting butt is implanted on your chest or Gut for the pivot point, it changes the moment arm regardless where your hand is placed. Just talking about the math involved (STATICS) and not fishing techniques."

You had also stated earlier that lengthening the rod will give the fish more leverage no matter where you place your hand. Where your hand is placed does make a difference. The further you move it from the fulcrum the more you can resist or pull on the fish. Any way you spin it what you wrote is incorrect. If you do the math Tom supplied you will see that moving your hand up or back on the rod makes a difference. Or do my test and you will understand it.If you move your hand forward you will gain, but you have to be careful not to place the greater load on the rod's mid-section which is not designed to handle it. For this reason I would tell the person who started the thread that he might be better off using a shorter rod to begin with. I know some people believe a longer rod will result in longer casts but that is not true beyond a certain point. So my question would be WHY go longer than nine feet if even that long? What is hoped to be gained?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2023 05:08PM by Mike Ballard.

This kinda reminds me of something although it is nothing about fishing. We have this large Refrigerator that has two doors in the upper half, a very large bottom drawer/freezer and a thin drawer in the middle for stuff like bagged salads cheese or what ever you want. We noticed that in the back of the drawer it was colder and would almost freeze stuff. Needless to say, it was not good to let the salad bags get into the back because it would make it get translucent and ruin it. The drawer has a assisted closing roller mechanism so you could give it a little shove and it would close itself. I for a long time was getting chewed out for putting the salad back there so finally last week I explained to my wife it is all about physics. I said when that drawer comes to a sudden stop, the Kinetic energy in those salads would make them continue to slide forward and eventually ended up at the back of the drawer, It wasn't me! PHYSICS! I have only been trying to explain moment arm and the forces that needs to change because of change of length of the rod OR where you place your hand and where the pivot.