I'm asking for subjective information here, mostly anecdotal and onion based I'm sure - it's not about the specific numbers in the example I use.

Let's say you have a rod that is 7'2 IP 650 AA 73

You find that you want a rod that "plays" fish a little better, has a little more give in it for throwing the same lure.

If your options are a rod that is 7'2 IP 600 AA 78 or a rod that is 7'2 IP 700 AA 69 which do you choose?
I imagine a lighter faster rod will bend into the mid a little more and a stronger slower rod will bend into the mid a little more.

It's not about the technique per se, but say your throwing light jig/worms, would you rather a lighter faster rod or stronger slower rod to achieve that goal?

Building rods in MA, Building the community around the world

El, A lot of your needed info can be found in the lure casting weight descriptions for the blanks, blanks of the same power, but faster tips will cast lighter lures and still cast the max limit also. This is for all blanks of all types, even boomer fly blanks, they will have heavier butt power with lighter tips so they can still throw in close to a certain extent. Back to the subject, blanks with a widest lure spread are usually the fastest blanks in the catalog. Power wise when you are really laying the wood to a fish all rods of the same power will ultimately have the same bend displayed. I would fish the IP 600 X AA 78. If 8 lbs of force, for instance, is bringing in a fish, the same 8 lbs. of force is on everything, what the rod is doing and how it is bent is on you as varied amounts of force, not on the fish, line, etc.

Can I just stick with the IP 650, AA 73 rod? Those numbers sound perfect to me, Not really a pull a fish out of heavy cover rod, but one that has good power for moderate cover or open water. Fast enough that it would throw lighter baits well, and have a nice bend into the mid section of the blank.

Basically a little more powerful version of an Immortal IMMC73ML

As far as the question itself goes ....... for me it would depend on what kind of places I'd be fishing with it. Heavier cover I'm going with the 700 IP 69 AA. Open water or light to moderate cover, the IP 600, AA 78. The IP 600 AA 78 blank is going to cast lighter baits way better than the IP 700 / AA 69 rod

Thanks for sharing your thoughts fellas!

Perhaps there is more consistent data elsewhere, but the reason why even the lure range can't be trusted is shown below.


*****X-ray MB764 502 77 1/4-3/4******

IM-MB705-1 565.97 70.9 1/4-3/4
HM-MB705-1 608.39 75.4 1/4-3/4
SM-MB 705-1 615 72.3 1/4-3/4

*****HM MB705 635 75 1/4-3/4*****

Delta MB705-1 671.2 66 1/4-3/4

*****IM-SJ705-1 724.42 71.2 3/16-5/8*****

I included a few diffenrent models to show the range of IP and AA for rods with the same Lure rating, and then I highlighted the extreme ends of that spectrum (the MB764 and HM-MB705). I also highlighted the SJ705 because it has a greater IP by quite a significant margin compared to the MB764, yet it is rated only up to 5/8oz and not 3/4.

There's also an almost 10 degree difference in action between the same blank with different material both listed as fast - but we already know that happens. I;m also only going to mention, but not include as in depth part of this discussion, that the SJ705 with 2225g higher IP than MB764 is labeled as a MH rated up to 5/8 while the MB764 is a M rated up to 3/4.

Here I'm merely pointing out that even trying to go by a blanks lure rating will not be able to give me any trustworthy idea of what it can thrown or how it will perform with "x" oz lures. An almost 225g difference seems rather significant.

I have never compared side by side 2 blanks with similar enough AAs and a huge difference in IP like these - unless the consensus here is that 225g IP difference isn't a big deal between 500-725?

Or even to compare just the rods rated 1/4-3/4 there is still a 135g difference - is that difference no big deal within that range? I can see IP1000and IP1350 maybe not being much of a noticeable difference, but wouldn't it be more noticeable at a lower level?

If you were going to throw a 1/4 jig in open water/sparse cover which of these would you choose?

What if we also add the option of HM-MB705-1 608/635 75.4 (except actually the MB735 version, of which we have no CCS data for)?

As always, I appreciate all ya'll's input

Building rods in MA, Building the community around the world



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2023 09:00AM by El Bolinger.

You are confusing a lot of things here. A Spin Jig Medium Heavy is lighter than a Mag Bass Medium which should be expected as the blanks do not feature the same taper. They are not measured the same way. You cannot compare across the board power between categories. And power has not much to do with casting weight range. WHERE is the power in the rod blank? I have used HotShot blanks that would make any Mag Bass blank feel like an ultralight, but they can only cast about 1/2 ounce. Go with the rated casting lure range on the blank, not the power rating. They are two different things. You cannot figure casting lure weight range by overall blank power.

Tom mentioned before he had some formula to calculate lure range with CCS data.

@Mike, thanks for your response. How is lure range figured then if not by the characteristics of the blank? I don't beloieve I've confused anything - as I mentioned, I was not intending to discuss MH F ratings between rods, merely mentioning them as it was included in the data presented. I understand they are designed different, but this isn't apples and oranges - it's more like red apples to green apples. Different flavor profiles, different bite feel, different skin texture, different size etc. but all apples.

I've never used a hotshot blank - please explain why that comparison would draw those conclusions.

And still - same apple to same apple then please share your thoughts on MB blank to MB blank both rated 1/4-3/4 with IP difference of 135g (IP500 and IP635) and similar AA - how do you think they would perform against each other in casting and fighting a fish?

Given the assumed characteristics of MB vs SJ and how the CCS sometimes counters that it seems that it might be a similar story as the MH F ratings where they can vary quite drastically.


***QUESTION FOR ALL Imagine if the comparison was blind and only included the CCS data, you had to pick blank A or blank B based solely on IP500 AA 77 or IP635 AA75 both rated 1/4-3/4 - which would you choose for 1/4oz weight+worm and why?

Building rods in MA, Building the community around the world



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2023 10:13AM by El Bolinger.

In my experience, modern carbon fiber rods will all cast above and below their suggested lure weight ranges, within reason of course. In my opinion, suggested lure weight ranges are ballpark ranges. In general for rods having the same lure weight range, the more powerful rod will better handle lures above their suggested rating, and lower powered rods will better handle lighter lures below their suggested range. Most extra fast rods have a softer tip which allows them to load better with lighter lures for their power. Just my opinion based on my experiences.
Norm

Hello El.
I "Think" this is the formula Tom came up with (I Think)
Lure Weights
Upper End: (1.5 X # of Cents) - 20 = Weight in Grains.}
-Then Convert Grains To Ounces.
Lower End: (.8 X # of Cents) - 20 = Weight in Grains.}
NOTE: ALL CENTS MUST BE 2005 OR LATER.
To convert from Fly to Spin: 1Wt = 1/8th oz. 2=3/16, 3=1/5th, 4=1/4, 5=5/16th, 6=3/8th,
7=3/5, 8=1/2, 9=9/16, 10=2/3, 11=3/4, 12=7/8-1oz.
Spin/Cast Blank to Fly Blank Formula.
Fly Line weight is your Numerator and 16 is your Denominator, so a 4wt=1/16 oz. or ¼ oz.
Spin or cast w/mid range weight of ¼ oz. will cast a 4wt line at average distances.


Hope this helps.

Tight Wraps & Tighter Lines.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.

CCS data will not give you lure weight casting range. That comes down to mostly tip power so unless you want to do the Big Picture measurement you can't get it. Trying to match CCS measurements to the mfg's ratings is a waste of time as they are not based on the same thing. Mfg ratings are category specific. Hopefully you do not think a light power surf rod is supposed to have the same power as a light power bass rod. A Medium power Spin Jig rod will not have the same power as a Medium Power Mag Bass rod. They aren't supposed to. Stop saying that these ratings must be incorrect because they do not agree with the CCS data. They are category specific and were not taken from CCS measurements to begin with.

The mfg's suggested lure weight ratings are pretty good. Yes you can go above or below them by adjusting your casting input. Overall they are very much spot on and based on tip power.

Mike Ballard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CCS data will not give you lure weight casting
> range. That comes down to mostly tip power so
> unless you want to do the Big Picture measurement
> you can't get it. Trying to match CCS measurements
> to the mfg's ratings is a waste of time as they
> are not based on the same thing. Mfg ratings are
> category specific. Hopefully you do not think a
> light power surf rod is supposed to have the same
> power as a light power bass rod. A Medium power
> Spin Jig rod will not have the same power as a
> Medium Power Mag Bass rod. They aren't supposed
> to. Stop saying that these ratings must be
> incorrect because they do not agree with the CCS
> data. They are category specific and were not
> taken from CCS measurements to begin with.
>
> The mfg's suggested lure weight ratings are pretty
> good. Yes you can go above or below them by
> adjusting your casting input. Overall they are
> very much spot on and based on tip power.

please share your thoughts on MB blank to MB blank both rated 1/4-3/4 with IP difference of 135g (IP500 and IP635) and similar AA - how do you think they would perform against each other in casting and fighting a fish?

Light Surf to Light trout to Light bass to Light panfish should all have the same power obviously, they're all fishing in the same water for the same thing

SHould a medium power mag bass have the same or or be close in power to a nother medium mag bass?

Building rods in MA, Building the community around the world



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2023 12:28PM by El Bolinger.

IP weight is not really a factor because the blank weight doesn't matter. They will both cast equally well with the same lure weight and the sweet spot will be 1/2 ounce. Look at the butt diameters on each blank. The larger of the two will be more powerful. Whether you like to fight the fish more off the upper part of the rod or have it flex more deep is up to you.

Light power surf and light power bass are not used for the same type fishing. Different use and different quarry. The mfg's ratings are category correct by that mfg's own definition.

El, you're pretty much bringing up the thread the Michael created a while back about standardizing named power ratings with CCS IP numbers. If you go back to that thread, you will see that for a medium heavy power, Michael proposed a CCS IP range of 626 grams - 925 grams. That''s 300 grams, so 135 grams is well within a named power range.

As far as the MB family you mention, while I think, and this is based on the power I like for certain baits, any CCS IP under 700 would be what I would call, medium power. When I think of a medium heavy power rod, it's a rod that has some guts. A rod with an IP of 565 doesn't have a lot of guts. At least not in my estimation.

And has others have said, you can't look at IP and determine casting weight ranges. IP is fish fighting power. Sure a higher IP will cast a heavier bait, but that doesn't mean it will handle it well. The same goes for casting weight ranges the manufacturers post.

For instance, the NFC SJ 736 X ray is rated 1/4 - 1 oz casting weight range. There is no way I personally would cast a 1 oz bait with the rods I have built on that blank. In my opinion, 5/8 oz total bait weight is the biggest I would cast with that blank. With 3/8 - 1/2 oz total bait weight, being the sweet spot for that blank. There is a difference between being able to cast, and being able to cast effectively.

As far as your question of which blank would I choose for the 1/4 oz weight + worm. I'd go with the IP 635 AA 75. Unless it's a jig worm, you have to drive the hook through soft plastic. You'll get a better hook set and more fish fighting power with the higher power and slightly slower action. I'd also make sure I was using a more slender body worm,

As for a rod with, an IP of 500 and AA of 77, it would be bordering on a finesse rod in my book. Not a lot of power and a pretty soft tip. Shaky head jigs with light wire hooks and very soft plastic baits. Open hook baits as well. Probably make a nice Lake Erie deep water drop shot rod.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2023 04:24PM by David Baylor.