I take it back


We can't trust Ralph ;)


Joking aside, I'll try to find what I read, I could've sworn he mentioned specifically the simple spiral not being as good as Robert's.

Have you or anybody you know of or anybody here built with exactly the same components but different spiral wrap methods to compare?

Building rods in MA, Building the community around the world

Matt Ruggie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lance
> Do you ever offset the butt guide in the
> direction of the spiral. I did a couple with the
> offset butt and dont see any line stacking on the
> reel. Not sure it makes a huge difference
> TBH..Like to hear your thoughts or anyone's for
> that matter.

I just put it at 0 degrees, have not had a problem with stacking yet at the distances I have been placing the butt guide from the reel. I don't think it would hurt to offset it a little if you had to. I recently did a light offshore build and caught a 70lbs+ black tip shark with it and did notice some stacking without a level wind reel although it was very light pressure that was barely noticeable and still stacked easily. The rod did shine in the fight with the spiral wrap and only 20lbs mono. Glad I had it.

El Bolinger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I take it back
>
>
> We can't trust Ralph ;)
>
>
> Joking aside, I'll try to find what I read, I
> could've sworn he mentioned specifically the
> simple spiral not being as good as Robert's.
>
> Have you or anybody you know of or anybody here
> built with exactly the same components but
> different spiral wrap methods to compare?



Look all you want, you'll never find that Ralph said such a thing, The Simple Spiral became his go-to method for spiral wrapping. The O'Quinn spiral, however, remains the most popular choice for those employing the spiral wrap on surf rods.

...........

I found it!

Granted he didn't specifically say "simple spiral" he explicitly states that his way is better than all simple spirals that quickly move the line to 180 (obviously including the "simple spiral")

Also, I noticed that posting from the app results in no update to the last poster where it lists the most recent post info, and doesn't bump to the top (I think we knew that last one)

And to clarify, that is an image of an article Ralph wrote.

Building rods in MA, Building the community around the world

El
Ya have a link to that article. Interested to see what he offset the butt guide but pic cuts it off right there......TIA

Lance
that must have been a blast....thanks for sharing your method.

Matt



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2023 11:14AM by Matt Ruggie.

El Bolinger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I found it!
>
> Granted he didn't specifically say "simple spiral"
> he explicitly states that his way is better than
> all simple spirals that quickly move the line to
> 180 (obviously including the "simple spiral")
>
>


El,

To say he "obviously" believed his method was better than the Simple Spiral shows a lack of knowledge of the timeline and individuals involved. Ralph's statement in the caption of the photo relates to the common Revolver and Robert's Wrap type wraps that used 3 or 4 guides in a short span to take the line to the bottom of the rod.

There is only one "Simple Spiral" and Ralph's article taken from RodMaker (above) was published YEARS before the Simple Spiral was developed. Ralph adopted the Simple Spiral the day he first saw it. He believed it was the most direct way to accomplish the task.

You do realize that Ralph and I were good friends and collaborated on a great deal of rod building techniques and articles, right?

.............



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2023 10:35AM by Tom Kirkman.

Matt Ruggie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> El
> Ya have a link to that article. Interested to
> see what he offset the bitt guide but pic cuts it
> off right there......TIA
>
> Lance
> that must have been a blast....thanks for sharing
> your method.
>
> Matt


There is no link to the article. It was published in RodMaker Magazine back in the early 2000's. I took that photo. Ralph did not offset his butt guide.

........



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2023 10:33AM by Tom Kirkman.

It is easy to come late to the party and not have knowledge of everything that happened before you got there. I remember when the O'Quinn spiral article came out in maybe 2002 or 2003? We adopted it for surf rods and it worked and still works very well. I think the Simple Spiral came out maybe in 2008 or 2009? I know Ralph had switched to it by the show that year.

Tom,
Thanks for the clarification...I must of misunderstood....what threw me off was the last line of the pic

"The first guide out from the reel seat is mounted offset the rod's 0 degree axis and is placed at"........

Mike Ballard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is easy to come late to the party and not have
> knowledge of everything that happened before you
> got there. I remember when the O'Quinn spiral
> article came out in maybe 2002 or 2003? We adopted
> it for surf rods and it worked and still works
> very well. I think the Simple Spiral came out
> maybe in 2008 or 2009? I know Ralph had switched
> to it by the show that year.


Ralph developed his method for the longer casting rods used in his part of the country. Salmon, steelhead, etc. and yes, surf rods. The common spiral systems of the day were not particularly good for those type rods. Ralph was one of the first, if not the first, to attempt a mostly straight line path for the line to travel. We talked about it a lot. Don Morton also wanted a more straight line path and he began doing something similar to the O'Quinn spiral but sped up the rotation so that everything was at 180 at the point where the rod made its initial 90 degree bend. From there the guides ran straight on to the tiptop.

My contention was always that you didn't have to take or transition the line to the bottom of the rod - it would go there naturally if you let it. I developed the Simple Spiral because I was spending so much time on the phone and responding to emails from readers wanting to know how to set up a spiral wrap. So I wrote a "form" type response that told them to just set up the rod like they would any normal casting rod and then flip all the guides, except for the butt guide, to the bottom of the rod. That was all there was to it. Later when some complained about the line lightly touching the blank between the first two guides I told them to put a low frame casting guide on the spot where the line touched. One of the other writers for the magazine coined the term "Bumper" for that guide. I still have people show me their Simple Spiral rods and many of them are really just 90-degree transition spiral wraps. There are no transition guides on a Simple Spiral. They're not needed.

I published an article with an overview of all the known spiral wrap systems at that time, in a past RodMaker Issue.

..............

@Tom I wasn't saying he never switched (I understood already that he very well may have made these comments earlier in the timeline). I was just saying that he said (evidenced by the quote next to that picture) that the wraps that get to the bottom fast have more friction and worse casting than his way. I was merely including the simple spiral in his generalization because generally speaking the simple spiral gets to the bottom faster than any other method. Thus it is included in his genral statement.

I was certainly not trying to misquote your friend, which os why I included the image. I never claimed he stopped learning and growing and never changed his mind, from what I know of him he seemed the type to want to continue to learn and progress with building - to me that includes changing one's mind about how to do something when confronted with compelling evidence.

I certainly realize your friendship and work with him gives you much greater insight to his thoughts, beliefs, and life - I'm just going by what's available to me.

@Matt here is what I was able to see regarding Ralph's placement and the degree to which he offset his first guide.

EDIT _ I JUST SAW THE POSTS BELOW

He said that he did this on rods from 6'8-7'6 from casting to down riggers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2023 11:21AM by El Bolinger.

Matt Ruggie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tom,
> Thanks for the clarification...I must of
> misunderstood....what threw me off was the last
> line of the pic
>
> "The first guide out from the reel seat is mounted
> offset the rod's 0 degree axis and is placed
> at"........


I can go back and look it up for you. By the time we did the article he may have been offsetting the butt guide but I seem to recall he didn't do that on reels with a level wind, at least not on his earlier one. Rich Forhan was the first guy to start doing that I think, and then only if the particular lure you were pulling caused the line to pile heavy to one side of the spool.

.............

El Bolinger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @Tom I wasn't saying he never switched (I
> understood already that he very well may have made
> these comments earlier in the timeline). I was
> just saying that he said (evidenced by the quote
> next to that picture) that the wraps that get to
> the bottom fast have more friction and worse
> casting than his way. I was merely including the
> simple spiral in his generalization because
> generally speaking the simple spiral gets to the
> bottom faster than any other method. Thus it is
> included in his genral statement.
>
> I was certainly not trying to misquote your
> friend, which os why I included the image. I never
> claimed he stopped learning and growing and never
> changed his mind, from what I know of him he
> seemed the type to want to continue to learn and
> progress with building - to me that includes
> changing one's mind about how to do something when
> confronted with compelling evidence.
>
> I certainly realize your friendship and work with
> him gives you much greater insight to his
> thoughts, beliefs, and life - I'm just going by
> what's available to me.
>
> @Matt here is what I was able to see regarding
> Ralph's placement and the degree to which he
> offset his first guide.
>

Remember that with the Simple Spiral the line isn't being "transitioned" to the bottom of the rod - the line is going there on its own. Ralph was talking about the popular spiral wraps of the day which typically had 3 or 4 guides in a sort of 0-60-120-180 transition in a span of no more than about 14 inches, if even that much. The line had to effectively turn through several guides before it got to the bottom of the rod. On the Simple Spiral there is very little guide friction because the line isn't being directed around the rod with guides. At most it lightly touches one side of the rod blank.

...........



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2023 11:26AM by Tom Kirkman.

Thanks Tom!!