I have used many thread finish, definitely not new to rodbuilding, been doing it 25+ years. My usual thread finish was backordered so I decided to try something new. This unnamed finish refuses to be on the ends of anything. It wicks away from the ends of every guide thread and wicks away off any clean finish line. The finish will actually try to wick from each end of any wrap and slightly try to football in the middle leaving the wrap ends dry. Even on a bare blank, the finish ends look as if the blank absorbed JUST THE CLEAN STOP END. You can see where the nice straight finish end was, it just looks damp.
Never seen anything like this with any finish I have used. There is NO contamination, the finish lays down very nice but the ends just just disappear. I can't get a shiny ending on bare blank or thread wraps. It's not the dryer speed either, very slow turn.
I'm definitely throwing this brand new (2 part) finish in the trash. Anyone else seen this?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2023 04:50PM by Duane Richards.

Is It a low viscosity finish (lite finish)?

"Medium build" on the package.

DR

If I knew what we were talking about, I might have an opinion.

Duane,
Very perplexing!!! You have been building rods for quite a while, have used various thread finishes, you say there is no contamination, typical turning speed, yet the finish is repelled from the edges and “balls-up” in the middle. I have never experienced your phenomenon so I can’t pinpoint the issue.
First and foremost, something in your routine has changed! Obviously, the finish is the first suspect but then, as you already explained, you have already experienced how similar many of the different brands perform. While anything is possible, I doubt the finish is the source of the issue. But maybe. From your description, and even though you believe it to not be the case, it certainly sounds like a contamination issue to me, more so with the blank than the thread wraps. All I can suggest is to work backwards, eliminating one variable at a time until the culprit is exposed. Start with the easiest to correct / most likely candidate. Granted, such will most likely involve testing on a sacrificial blank which does not solve your issue immediately, but at least you will learn what the heck is going on. Most importantly, KEEP AN OPEN MIND and don’t fall into the trap of “I know that can’t be the problem”.
Best of luck and please keep us posted on your findings; I (hopefully all) are here to learn!!!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

It really sounds like some kind of contamination.. Either on the blank or maybe atmospheric. Anything applied to the blank beforehand? Anybody spraying anything in the room?

Lynn, imagine applying finish ahead of the reel seat 4" for a decal. At the end of the 4" have a place on the blank where the finish stops. Looks even, straight, shiny and clean. Come back and look at it 10min later and that edge has receded like an ocean tide, leaving only a damp looking perfectly straight line. Zero gloss from your stopping point headed back at the reel seat 1/16" wide. Now imagine this same concept on the ends of every thread you laid down. Anywhere you stop the finish, it goes tidal and retreats in about 10min.

I've never seen anything like it either. My son has watched me build rods for his whole life, he couldn't believe what he was seeing.

No one spraying anything. Blank not cleaned, direct from manufacturing package.

I searched around and found some at least 15 year old, very orange in color Aftcote finish nearly empty. I warmed the bottles to get the finish to original viscosity and applied a thin coat of it on the same rod, ....turned out absolutely beautiful. Worked perfectly, stayed put, never receded from any edges, acted like finish should.

Definitely not contamination, definitely the finish itself. I ordered new finish for the next builds.

DR

Please help us new builders avoid this finish, no need to be coy here - this is a place for sharing information, new age old timey word of mouth style lessons for the next generation of builders... like folklore passed on from generation to generation, help us learn and grow and know which mushrooms are edible and which will keel us over for days -

What is the finish called?

Building rods in MA, Building the community around the world

Duane,
“Blank not cleaned, direct from manufacturing package”. Hum!?!? “…Aftcote finish nearly empty. I warmed the bottles to get the finish to original viscosity and applied a thin coat of it on the same rod, ....turned out absolutely beautiful”. It is very possible that the original affected coat of finish diluted / dispersed the contamination enough for the Aftcote to not be affected. Too bad you didn’t try a second coat of the original finish = we still don’t know the precise culprit. While the original finish may appear to be the cause of your issues, is it actually?

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Duane
If you could, take a piece of scrap blank material, wrap a guide, finish it with the brand in question, also lay down a decent length of finish like you were applying a base to put a decal on and see what happens.
My other question, have you built on these same blanks prior using the finish you always used or is this a never built on blank and new to you finish?

My gut says, maybe the new finish is reacting with that particular brand of blank. While all the finishes are very similar in chemical make up, this new finish may have an additive not found in Aftcote or other brands that have worked fine in the past. I’m guessing here that the problem is not the finish, but something on the blank.

Mark, the Aftcote was my 3rd coat. I already tried 2 coats of the "new" finish before going to the Aftcote, as I suspected the same as you. The 2nd coat of the new finish did the same ocean tide recede as the 1st. I kept dragging it off the main body of finish and onto the edge over and over. Finally after seeing this again with the 2nd coat, I looked around for an alternative: the much older Aftcote that saved the build. Then posted it here to see if I was the only one. I need no help in fixing the issue, I just wanted to know if my case was isolated.

El Bollinger, please shoot me an email, I do not want this thread to turn into a finish bashing mess by everyone. I understand your concern 100%, but like Bill pointed out, it could be the blank and this particular finish. drcrwr@gmail.com

The blank is a Gary Loomis MB 734-1 (HM) and yes I have built on this exact blank before, BUT I was using the very last of my Threadmaster Lite finish and it performed perfectly as usual. This blank is with the "new" finish.

DR

Duane,
What is the brand and name of the finish. It just sounds like a bad batch of epoxy. I would call the manufacturer and tell them, and see what they say. These types of epoxies are done in short runs at the plants that make them. The same plant and process system may be used for other similar chemical compounds after they are cleaned and passivated. A new operator, valve malfunction, improper clearing of the line, etc may alter the finished product. This happens more often than you would think. The batches should have been tested at the lab where they were made but sometimes, even then, they may skip a run.
Best Regards,
Lance

Lance,

The epoxy used was Pro-Kote.

DR

Duane,

I have had that experience, too. You are not alone in this. To be honest, these kinds of things are often still a mystery to me because it rarely happens in my builds, like it does in yours. The rarity of the event creates the sense (perhaps falsely on my part) that everything was Exactly the Same every other time I did XYZ. Well, I finally reasoned, something changed because the universe doesn't decide to suspended the laws of physics and chemistry just to mess with my head. Not often, mind you - only sometimes...ha!

At some point, as you did, I had to try something different if what I tried didn't work after multiple attempts.

These are not YOUR culprits necessarily, but these are some of the culprits I have suspected and found in the past. None of these are necessarily in YOUR situation:

* Different trim band or wrapping thread than I used before. I have used some I suspect were coated with something to go through a sewing machine easier.
* Rod rotation and speed of rotation: When epoxy is still viscous and flowy, augering (sp) epoxy in the direction of the wrap can happen; especially with larger size threads.
* Contaminants to a part of my thread-holding or tensioning device: In my specific case, a wool strip that put tension on the thread spool was a suspect after I replaced the old one.
* Contaminants to the general environment of my working area: How did it get into my shop when I only polished the furniture in the room upstairs?
* Non-dead-level blank. Those slight tilts can matter.
* I didn't wash my hands first. (I thought I did.....but did I?) Looking clean does not mean they are clean. Are my fingers touching the thread a lot as I wrap?
* Plastics of all sorts are treated with release agents from their molds...different batches come from different manufacturers who use different processes and chemicals. Includes syringes, bags, mix cups, etc.
* And who knows, maybe the guy who handled your blank at the factory just caulked his bathroom tub with silicone before he or she came to work that day and put your blank in the bag after a quick run through the hands. (probably not, but who the heck knows!?)

There are a myriad of possible culprits. If you were able to solve it using a different batch of epoxy, That is a relief and great news.

I, too, like the Threadmaster Lite finish. Gen 4 isn't bad either, though I don't have the experience with it yet. Made by same company, I think?

Thanks Les!

All of those sound plausible to me ????

So any things have changed in the last 12 or 15 years. So many people and businesses are gone that I use to know here. In that change, and with availability today, I had to substitute my tried and true, this was definitely my cross to bare.

I have an order being shipped today that will fill my Threadmaster need for a long long time! Good to know that the gen4 is a good backup! Thanks for that information, hope I never have to use it ????

DR

Got your back, Duane!

I, too, have swung in and out of the rod-building world over the decades. Things change, while our love of the craft and fishing have not. Suppliers, concepts and components.....all are in some state of flux or another. And to be fair, some of the new stuff is better. It just requires a bit of a learning curve to get up to speed. No problem for smart guys like us, right!? Hehe!

You are a problem-solver, so I am sure you will find your way to what you want and need.

Yeah, I tried several things to resolve the Epoxy Tides phenominon, as you describe:
* Waiting for the epoxy to thicken enough that it couldn't pull back from the edge. (Even though pulling it over when thickened was a hassle, Sometimes it worked.)
* Hand-rotate the rod (flip 180-degrees in intervals of time) to prevent the auger-effect under constant rotation by letting epoxy thicken first. (Works great 98% of the time, but not ALWAYS)
* Let the epoxy cure completely, and then scrub the @#$%& outta that area with Dawn soap to remove the 'resisting' element, whatever it might be. Even sand carefully! (Like all other solutions, it works IF that was the issue.)
* To be honest, I don't recall trying Color Preserver over the threads first to encapsulate any potential contaminants....but might be worth a try in some cases. That is only if you want to preserve the original color of the thread.
The application of CP can be just the ticket to solve some issues, but is not a universal cure-all.)

Anyway, there are no issues you have that I haven't had, or will have again, that reasonable and curious minds can't overcome! Quote from, "The Rod-Builders Creed", volume 12, page 124. JK!.

Part detective, part chemical and structural engineer, part artisan....and all FISHERMAN is profile a rod-builder. Preferably with a sprinkling of humility in there somewhere.

You got it, Duane!

Les,

I will add one more fix for others to try, this works over decals as well: Krylon Fixatif. It's a clear spray that when applied lightly and let dry can solve a LOT of finish issues (haven't tried it on wrappings)

DR

No need to even have a discussion.

If you have a product that works and change to a different product that does not work, let the new product find its quick exit to the trash can and go back to your original product or a different product that comes with excellent reviews.

The fact that this one product is affecting everything you are doing - means it is time to dump the product and find something else.

Simply put for a lot of issues - the problem is contamination .

Wash your hands frequently.
Keep any oil or silicone wall away from any of your builds.
When mixing products, be sure to mix them very well. In the case of thread epoxy, mix slowly for a minimum of 2 minutes or 120 seconds using a method that mixes every single particle of the mix completely and thoroughly.

Be really careful about using any sort of liquid on the rod again, after the initial rod blank cleaning to avoid the addition of some sort of contamination in the liquid that you might be using.

Best wishes and have a great day.

Duane,

I have use Krylon Fixative over my pencil/graphite construction plans and artwork for years to "fix' the rendering. Good Call! How do you rate or compare it to Color Preserver as a sealer?

Duane, try a different finish.