Norman Miller Wrote:
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> I’ve always thought an epoxy saturated thread
> wrap was a composite, which is made from two
> dissimilar materials and when combined are
> stronger than those individual materials by
> themselves. In other words an epoxy reinforced
> fiber.Correct me if I’m wrong.
> Norm

I believe you are correct. Look at invisible wraps. The white silk thread only becomes transparent when the epoxy has permeated the thread, creating a composite. Capillary action causes the epoxy to saturate the tread. Of course, it's important to fill the tunnels, and all voids to produce the strongest bond. I also believe that the epoxy glues the tread to both the guide, and blank, just as it glues a reel seat to the blank.

Tight Lies and frisky fish

RJF

Robert,

The type epoxy used for most thread wrap finishes is a casting resin, not an adhesive, although it will have some adhesive properties. But it's not the same thing even though both are epoxies.

..............

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
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> Robert,
>
> The type epoxy used for most thread wrap finishes
> is a casting resin, not an adhesive, although it
> will have some adhesive properties. But it's not
> the same thing even though both are epoxies.
>
> ..............

Tom, Thanks. Knew knowledge is always appreciated. I've us 9syringes filled with liquid solder fluxed epoxy over the years for everything from waterproofing Cannon Plugs, to gluing balsa airplanes, to making tail light covers, and syringe holders (syringes filled with liquid solder flux)..Epoxy is great for making decorative paper weights, with sea shells imbedded in them. When the epoxy was past its expiration date at a military company I worked for, they had to throw away gallon cans of the stuff. I asked if I could take some of it home, and was told to go ahead. I made so many things with it. It definitely had adhesive properties. I just figured that all epoxies had adhesive properties.

Tight Lies and frisky fish

RJF

Regarding: "I think this thread got off on the wrong foot! I never saw anyone advocate thread wrap only. "

I never said I or anyone else was considering thread only. This is the second and last time I'm going to clarify this. I was just questioning the old "truth" that the fihish simply protects the thread, that the thread provided the strength.

I have always thought that untrue, that the thread/finish combined to make a composite, as others have mentioned. My post was to see what others thought.

The thread is what binds the guide to the rod blank. Epoxy, urethane, etc., protects the thread and ensures the guide will not slip or shift under the wrap. Probably the best way to put it.

...........

Guides do not shift or slip due to any lack of wrap strength. Even A thread makes a strong as you know what wrap. I have never seen any guide rip through a wrap of even size A. No need for more strength of any sort of composite for strength but you do have to make sure the thread doesn't get wet and that you have something to keep the guides from shifting or slipping. You can eliminate most shift or slip with a Forhan Lock Wrap but you still have to protect the thread from the elements and abrasion in handling. This is where finish comes in. So to do everything that a wrap needs to do there is a combination of steps that result in something that works in every instance and holds up over the life of the rod.

I have had more trouble with zombies than I ever had with guides wrapped tightly with thread and saturated with lacquer or epoxy - but I am all the more interested in cases of rod wraps failing. Descriptions would be nice - photos even better!

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
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> I have had more trouble with zombies than I ever
> had with guides wrapped tightly with thread and
> saturated with lacquer or epoxy - but I am all
> the more interested in cases of rod wraps failing.
> Descriptions would be nice - photos even better!


Failed guide wraps are almost always due to some sort of abuse. Even then it is unlikely that a guide bursts a wrap open. Guides can and do sometimes pull out of a wrap (hence the purpose of the Forhan Lock Wrap) but even that is usually due a fisherman hanging a guide on a rod box lid or something when putting it in or taking it out of a rod locker or something. Poorly finished wraps that allow water intrusion and which allow degradation of the wrap can also result in a guide coming loose or being pulled from a wrap.

...............

"The thread is what binds the guide to the rod blank. Epoxy, urethane, etc., protects the thread and ensures the guide will not slip or shift under the wrap. "

Because a composite system is formed. It goes way beyond simply protecting the thread. The "and ensures the guide will not slip or shift . . ." concedes there is a lot more going on than just protecting the thread which has always been the "mantra." The composite system is like glued laminated beams in construction.

Guides wraps have always been strong enough to do what they do even a century before epoxy was invented. And nylon fibers do not absorb epoxy. Expoy or CP just fills in the tiny areas between the fibers. You can nick or cut one end of an epoxied wrap and just pull and unravel the thread right out of the epoxy. I do it all the the time when I replace damaged guides. I will give that the epoxy makes s channel for the guide to sit in and prevent shifting. Other than that its purpose is to prevent water into the wraps or damage to the thread. But I still have no idea where the original post or topic was about.

The finish enhances the function of the thread and offers the following benefits:

1) It encapsulates and solidifies the wrap which prevents the guide from moving and chafing or loosening in the wrap.

2) It protects the the threads from abrasion, scuffing or unraveling from hard use and handling.

3) It encapsulates the wrap and forms a moisture barrier.

4) It offers eye appeal and presents a finished look to the rod.

The wrap and finish work in harmony to provide a rigid durable assembly.

A century before it was the same as it is now. The thread and the finish combined to form a composite. Whatever the finish was. I don't think many on this forum understand what a composite is. But thanks for your participatioin, has been illuminating. And Phil, I don't have a failure to show you because all my wraps have been successful.

Is there a problem with guides breaking out from under their wrappings or the wrappings themselves breaking? I have never encountered this problem, even before epoxy was available.

I have seen burst thread wrap, however only on very old saltwater rods that were not taken care off, the wrap finish in theses cases was varnish. I have also had on guide pull out of the wrap on a fly rod I built where I forgot the Forhan lock. The gude was snagged on brush along a creek. My boo boo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2022 12:35PM by Phil Erickson.

Take care with "lite" snake guides on fly rods. They are springy enough so that if struck parallel to the blank one guide foot will back out from under its wraps. Several Forhan Wraps around each leg of each snake guide will alleviate this problem..

One of the disadvantages of light snakes vs light single foot guides which can be stabilized more easily than doing locking loops on a double foot guide. Yes I know the wind knot argument. Just go a little bigger with the single foot.

The often overlooked advantage of snake guides (besides weight) is the geometric construction of snake guides permits larger tangles/"wind knots" to clear your guide train without hanging up.

OMG! You guys!

I have no doubt that finish adds strength to a wrap, but I agree with Tom in that the strength epoxy adds is more about keeping guide feet from shifting, than it is anything else. The Forhan locking wrap has been mentioned a couple of times. If epoxy added any significant strength in keeping a guide from pulling out, one would think there'd be no need for a locking wrap.

I think we are splitting hairs. All of you have a share in being right.

Both components are necessary for a rigid and durable assembly. The percentage each brings to the party is immaterial. Its the marriage of both that makes it last.

As I said earlier just look at the billions and billions of rods built over the years, if wrap alone did the job or the finish alone did the job, economics would dictate rods would be built with one or the other.

Have Fun