I wonder if any of you have access to or have read the article in the new issue of Fishing Tackle Retailer about how badly the no fault unlimited warranties have hurt the fly rod manufacturers and the fly fishing shops. I had no idea the problem was as bad as it is.

According to someone they quoted from St. Croix, the entire industry is ready to throw in the towel on these warranties but no one wants to be the first to do it. But, he added that St. Croix would be forced to drop their unlimited warranty either this year or next for certain.

They also mentioned that Sage now charges a $30 fee when they replace a rod and will soon move back to a limited warranty where only rods that have broken due to actual defects will be covered at no charge.

Interesting stuff and could be a boon for custom rod builders who have had to compete against these silly warranties for the past few years.

It had to happen sooner or later. When I worked for a local tackle shop, I had customers tell me they purposely broke rods so they would have new ones every few years. How stupid is that! Or better yet, if they didn't like the action, they'd break it and have the manufacturer swap it for a totally different model or even upgrade it for a small fee (example: GL3 to GLX). Loomis had a great idea with their expeditor program. They're basically selling the customer a new rod at their cost instead of eating the whole thing.

I have heard this from 3 different shop owners over the past couple of months. There is over 150 miles between these shops, so something has to be up.

Two of the dealers, both Orivs, told me that Orvis was considering getting out of the rod making business. They said that only about 3% of Orvis sales are rods. I was very seriously looking at buying a rod. Why would they tell me not to buy one if it wasn't true. Yes, I said they told me not to buy Orvis rods because they would not be warrentied in a couple of years. They are also considering only selling the Far& Fine line and the T3 line. Meaning they will drop the Trident TLS and Clear Water lines. By the way Orvis charges $25 return shipping and handling.

Powell has already taken actions on this. They only have one rod type out now, the Tiboron. They voided all of the warrenties on all other rods sold. If you break any of the other rods you have to pay 50% of the Tiboron MSRP to upgrade to the Tiboron, or you don't get a rod. That is on top of the $40 charged for return shipping and handling.

St. Croix has already done this with their spinning rods. I have an Avid spinning rod that I bought 4 years ago. It broke this past spring. I have the tag sitting here that says limited lifetime warrenty. The will sell me a new rod for 40% of the MSRP. I am assuming that is their cost on the rod. St. Croix only charges $20 return shipping and handling.

Scott charges $30 return shipping and handling.

Loomis had to do something. Their rods break easier than any other rod out there, but they are also on the very high end of the proformance scale. I guess you can't have both.


I'm sure it is only a matter of time for the rest of them as well. I personaly would not pay $500 for a rod that did not have a lifetime warrenty. Dropping the lifetime warrenties will hurt rod makers as well, but is it less than the warrenty cost? I guess we will see.

I just had two St. Croix Avid spinning rods repaired by them for $10 each (including shipping), the uplocking nut assembly had broken on both. While I didn't get new rods, they now have new rear grips, cork reel seat inserts and locking nuts, all done in less then two weeks. The rods are seven years old. I even called their CS dept first to verify the procedure and got very cordial, no hassle information.

I believe Powell´s Ti-Borons up-grade choice after breakage of other older models, is the difference between the Retail price of the older model and the TiBoron now.

Most fine rod manufacturers have some sort of Limited Lifetime Warranty on the higher end rods rather than what some that might misuderstand as 'unconditional', and that is usually where the problem lies.

As one could appreciate, the limited conditional warranty does not entertain coverage for abuse or accidental breakage. Rod companies that offer this will calcualate the 'risk' into their overall pricing and business model. The limited lifetime warranty, such as St. Croix offers on Avid and higher end series rods is for rods or blanks that are covered for replacement or repair due to defect of material or worksmanship. The description to the customer for the warranty is not "unconditional" even though replacement often is more feasable than repair with a small cost associated. We all pay for this in the end if accepting non descript import quality and less association with our domestic expertise.

It is unfortunate that many anglers would deliberately cause breakage such as described. For the most part anglers should be educated in equipment usage for keeping within model ratings and proper care and storage. That is where much of the breakage occurs.
The solution on a business or competetive perspective is difficult to envision, but hopefully the industry can come together with the help of pro rod shops to give realistic claims and purpose to all the different rods usage. The custom rod builder can play an important part in this by having a special attention with their own use and customers in bringing out features of purpose, form and function and CARE.
I know many in the business can relate to hearing stories about rod damage relating to nothing that the rod was inteded for. Rarely does the actual use of the rod in fishing cause need to use the warranty.

Rich

Unconditonal warranties are what keeps driving the cost of blanks and rods up. Normally a rod if there is a manufacture defect will break the first few times of use. For example you catch a 10 20lbs steelhead on your first 10 times out on the 11 time out the rod breaks is this really a manufacture defect or maybe when you threw that rod in the bed of the pickup and bounced down that dirt road the rod got banged around. So is every one going to tell the manufacture that they threw the rod in the bed of a truck problaly not but there would be a few honest Joe's. Now as for the manufacture replacing a rod or blank just becuase you may have paid $500.00 for that rod or blank the manufacture had to sell it to a distributor than to the retailer Now I highly dout that the manufacture tells the distributor and the retailer to chip in and giving this person a new $500.00 dollar rod. Or what if this person breaks the rod again. So that means at that point the manufacture is not making a profit its hard to stay in bussiness when you are having to give product away for free.
Scott Melton
Rod-Blanks.com

My St. Croix Avid was broken 3 guides down for the tip top by somebody stepping on it while I was trying to untangle our lines. I talked with St. Croix customer servers and told them what had happened. They are very nice people. Limited lifetime warrenties on these rods . They could not repare mine so they offered me a new rod at 40% of the current MSRP plus $20 return shipping and handling.
Scott,
You are right. It is very hard to tell the differance between manufactures defect and abuse. Yes I do believe that the 11th fish could have been a manufactures defect. It also could be abuse, or just the way the fish was fought. Both of the fly that I have had break on me broke while fighting fish in sub freezing weather. The manufactures deternimed that it was the temp. that caused the rod to break. Is it my fault, when there was nothing saying that this rod could not be used in sub freezing temps? Both rods (same make and model different line weights) broke on the same day. Both rods were replaced in a timly manor and I sold them. They won't do what I need them to do. The were both less than a year old. One of them had only been fished twice.

What about rods that degrade over time. This degradation happens to all materials including the strongest of the metals. Who's fault is this? Should the rods be built to last a lifetime, 25 years, 15 years what? As an engineer I have to look at the expected servace life of the products I am designing and weight the costs accordingly. If I say the product will last 10 years and it breaks in 10 + 1day it's not my fault. If it breaks in 9 years 364 days it is my fault I guess. The rod industry has a big chalange ahead of them.

I also didn't say that they were required in any way to give an unconditional lifetime warrenty on any rod. Just the fact that I and someother people would not spend the extra money on a rod that didn't have one. One of the main reasons I have bought several of my $500+ rods is the fact that I know (Knew) the company would stand behind their product. I could buy 4 to 5 middle of the road rods with no warrenty at all for the same price as the one more expensive rod. They are still capable of landing fish, why bother with the more expensive rods?

The offer on the Powell Tiborons being the differance of the retail price on your rod and the Tiboron is only on rods from 1997 and newer. All other rods will have to pay 50% of the MSRP of the Tiboron to get a new rod.

I AGREE WITH ALL THAT'S BEEN SAID. I WORK WITH A GUY THAT TOLD ME HE ONLY BUYS ONE COMPANIE'S RODS BECAUSE THEY HAVE A LIFETIME WARRANTY AND WILL REPLACE THEM. NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES TO THEM OR WHO IS TO BLAME, HE WILL RETURN IT. THIS KIND OF ACTIONS ONLY DRIVES UP THE PRICE. AND WE ALL PAY FOR IT. MAYBE IF THE ROD MANUFACTURERS DROPPED THE LIFETIME WARRANTY, AND I SAID MAYBE, THE PRICES WOULD COME DOWN. I HAVE A HARD TIME SEEING 200 TO 300 DOLLARS OR MORE IN A ROD ANYWAY. I KNOW COMPOSITES COST AND ALL THE OTHER ITEMS TO GET IT TO ME COST, BUT NOT WHAT SOME OF THESE MASS MANUFACTURERS WANT. I WAS GIVEN A WELL KNOWN NAME BRAND FLY FISHING VEST. 60 TO 80 DOLLARS FOR IT. IT WAS MADE IN CHINA!! THEY DID NOT PAY A QUARTER OF THAT TO HAVE IT MADE AND SHIPPED HERE.
IF FISHING TACKLE, BOATING, AND STATE FISH & GAME PEOPLE AREN'T CAREFUL THEY WILL PRICE ALL OF US OUT OF THE THINGS WE LOVE TO DO.

MARK

There is risk involved in fishing and it comes with the territory and at least I don't want to take the time to baby a rod while fishing. Things happen - it's like flying a kite in a park. It's not the best place to fly a kite but we've all done it because ........ (forget it, bad analogy). The second time using a new rod, I stepped over what looked like a grassy edge on a stream and snapped my rod on the way down into the water. Another time, my wife and I stopped for a rest and she accidently stepped on my almost new rod. I guess I should have leaned it against a tree, but maybe we were tired and there was not a tree nearby or maybe I thought she knew where my rod was. I don't remember - it just happened.

Having just spent $500.00 and accidently breaking a rod would be enough for a lot of people to give up fishing and I think it would be in the best interest of rod manufacturers to continue having some kind of warranty to keep them in the sport. The other option would be for the prices of rods to come down so people wouldn't feel so bad about breaking a rod, but this isn't likely to happen. I agree with an earlier post that what the manufacturers are doing now is to overprice their rods with the assumption that a certain percentage of their customers will break them and they'll have to replace them to keep them fishing.

Maybe a compromise would be for manufacturers to pro-rate their warranties so at least people would feel they've gotten a fair deal and at the same time prevent people from taking advantage of them. For example, first year 100% unconditional warranty, two to three years 75%, three to five 50%, etc. I personally wouldn't feel too bad if I accidently broke a rod after ten years and the warranty had run out on it. And I certainly wouldn't purposely break a functioning five year old rod to get a new one if I have to pay 75% of the cost.

But really, isn't the real solution to all this is to build a better blank? Maybe it's time to move on to another material other than graphite - something that my knee can't snap while falling into a river.

While I'm sure that this isn't the only business that has grown used to an unconditional warranty, it is one of very few. Particularly in the field of outdoor sports. For those of us who build cane rods, would you ever consider offering a warranty rod to someone who had slammed the tip of their original rod in a vehicle door? I just purchased a new waterproof camera for my fishing trips. It comes with a one year parts and labor warranty. But if I take it back looking like it has been used to hammer tent stakes in the ground, I'm not getting squat from the manufacturer. And I believe that is how it should be.

If I buy a $500 rod, and I break it through my own negligence, I don't expect someone else to be responsible for it. I have damaged rods through what we all call accidents if we are the causing factor. And I would have loved for someone to take responsibility besides me. But I think the time has come for us to move past the unconditional warranty.

Having said that, those who have rods that were sold as being unconditionally warrantied, should expect to have those warranties honored if the company is still in business. If that particular model is no longer produced, they should replace the rod with a model that is comparable or above.

Stan,

The problem is that other anglers are being charged for your carelessness. A premium is added the price of each rod so that the maker can replace, at no cost, any rods returned, no matter why they broke. That's really not fair to the guys who don't break their rods. And many have never broken one.

Accidents do happen and that 's why most of the makers will offer to replace a rod or blank at a very nominal fee. This is the way it was done for very long and it worked very well. But the no-fault unlimited warranties have ultimately punished everyone, yourself included. Because without that type of warranty, your $500 rod would have cost you much less to begin with.

And lets keep in mind, that it is very easy to tell the difference between a manufacturing defect and a rod that has broken due to abuse, impact, etc. And the manufacturers are not dropping their warranties, just the no-fault warranties. Personally, I'll be glad to see it happen.

................

Jeff, Tom,
Thank you!!
Unconditional warantee?
A nice idea but, that has definitely lost me a few customers.
Not that my rods are inexpensive, but for only a bit more you get great cork, top of the line guides, blank spined correctly and a flawless varnish job.
Considering the craftsmanship that many of us attain, I think we are selling a great value!

Be well,
John

I am vary familure with a rod company from Woodland Washington and their warrenty people. Number 1 they go berserk when a customer comes in and says a fish broke their rod. There is a few reason why a rod breaks 1- abuse 2- to heavy a rated line 3-how the rod was used to fight a fish.You can not safety pin a graphite rod. I have had a few customers come in to my shop when I was in business saying their rod broke and they did not know why. Their rod was about 15yrs but old this customer took excellent care of his rod it looked almost brand new. It was replaced a no charge. I have also had customers come in with broken rods that were less than a year old and look like it went threw a war. Needless to say this company did not replace this rod because it had been abused by the owner. It is easy to see what a abused rod looks like
Good Wraps Bob

Very interesting thread. I can honestly say I have broken only two rods. Both times entirely my fault. The Mitchel Ul was out of warranty and they were gobbled up by fenwick who offered me a fenwick at $55. I passed. Thats why I bought eight of the suckers to start with (on sale).
and one of the all time best UL's. The other was a telescoping All Star when I first started fishing. I caught it up rod to pull a hook loose. Over the years I have bought 70 of mfavorite rods. If I ever break another it will probsbly be my fsult again. I have never paid more than $200 for a rod (Loomis) and with I had my $200 back. It is way down the food chain from my favorite rods. But I assume you guys are talking about the water frothing rods> Also, if I felt like I had enough money to spend on a $500 rod, by golly I could afford to eat it if I broke it through abuse. Warranty or no. Most of my roda are less than $100. A great rod I bought not long ago is the asirrus. Not thats a rod folks. Fact of the matter is, I will have two more at the door tomorrow before I wake.
And I do think he offers a lifetime warranty. And the gods are drop dead gorgeous.

You can stick me with s fork now, cause i'm done.

Just my 2c,

Bubba

Tom, you are right and I need to be reminded to take care of my equipment. Believe it or not, I use my cap to set my reel on along the streambed. Anyway, I'm new and certainly not a professional like many here. I see the controversy now with the unconditional warranty and how this affects the professional custom rod builder, which I'm not but enjoy making rods for myself and friends. My apologies if I offended anyone in defense of the unconditional warranty.

I do think though that it is unlikely that prices will drop with the elimination of the unconditional warranty. I think the price of rods will be what the market will bear. Let me give you an example with gas prices. Before the 1970s, all service stations had attendants that would fill your gas, wash windshields, check the oil, etc. Sometime in the early early to mid 70s, self service became popular. You could save a buck or two if you pumped your own gas and did everything else. Within a short time though prices for self service had crept back up to where they were for full service. Oil companies were charging what the market would bear before self service and absorbing the cost of attendants, but after self service, they were still charging what the market would bear but we were now pumping our own gas!

Isn't it the same thing with everything else, including rods? Are prices going to go down for a year if the unconditional warranty is eliminated only to level off again to what the market will bear? And if it does stay down, then something in the sport merchandise market will likely fill the void left when the price of rods dropped from $500.00 to $250.00. Rod makers will end up with a smaller piece of the whole pie. Not good.

Will the prices go down? Just like you, I doubt it. What will happen is the no-fault warranties will go by the wayside and the prices will stay where they are. But it was the warraties that helped move them up to that point to begin with.

I read the article this morning and Randall Kaufman (Kaufman's Fly Shop) said that he figures these warranties have come him something like $135,000 per year in rods he "didn't" sell.

I like the idea of manufacturers offering to replace a rod for a nominal fee if the breakage was caused by abuse and not a manufacturing defect. Even if it cost a third to a half the price of a new one, you're still coming out fairly well and don't have to pay full price for a new one due to an accident. Of course, this is the way things already were before a few of the companies decided to use the no-fault warranty as a marketing tool and when you come right down to it, that's all it was. A way to take market share from your competitors. Once they all did it, there was no advantage to be gained and only losses to be counted. That's why this particular type of warranty is being dropped.

...........

When graphite was first introduced as a material for making blanks it did not have very high tensile strength and the early rods were very easy to break. I think that the no fault warranties came into vogue shortly after higher tensile strength graphite became available to rod manufacturers. The rod manufacturers knew that they were still going to get some breakage but used this marketing tool to try to offset the perception that fisherman had developed about graphite being fragile.
The graphite materials that are used today are a heck of a lot better but they still have much lower tensile strength than glass and are more subject to being broken. However, the material is much better in every other respect than any other materials that are presently available for making fishing rods for most applications.
Having said that, it seems to me that the real issue with warranties for us and for the blank manufacturers is reasonableness and fairness. We and our customers, if we are reasonable people, want to be treated fairly.
I am not sure that the no fault warranties are fair and reasonable for us or the blank manufacturers. If we receive no fault warrenties from the blank manufacturers then it seems to me that our customers will expect that we give them no fault warrenties. Frankly, I rarely ever give a customer any heat about a broken rod and usually just replace it. However, I know that 99% of the broken rods are not the result of defects in material or workmanship. It is almost always the result of some sort of accident or abuse.
I am not sure what the solution is but I think that we and the blank manufacturers need to find some intermediate position that is fair and reasonable to both parties.
One additional point that I think should probably be made. The rod and blank making buisness is no bowl of cherries for the big manufacturers. Because rod and blank making is a labor intensive business they are getting intense pricing competition from off shore sources. The last thing that we as custom rod builders want is for our sources of blanks to go out of business.

... And many of the companies began building to the level of their warranties. It's not a problem to get more durability from a rod, regardless of the fiber you're using or the tensile strength involved - drop the diameter and beef up the walls. Of course, you gain some durability, but only at the expense of a heaver rod for the same stiffness. I have long suspected that having cover such liberal warranties has cost us some measure of performance in the blanks we buy.

Limited warranties covering actual defects seems fair to me. The fact that the blank and rod makers have always been willing to replace rods and blanks for less than the price of a new one has also seemed fair and reasonable. In many if not most cases, the makers have actually replaced, at no charge, rods that were broken through abuse, even though no such no-fault warranty was in place. They've done it for customer goodwill.

A limited warranty along with a stated policy and price for replacing broken rods and blanks that were damaged due to abuse would be welcomed, I would think. At least that way you know up front what it's going to cost you to step on your rod.

...........

Tom,
You are probably right about the tensile strength of graphite today. But even the low modulus, high tensile strength graphite today only has about 25% of the tensile strength of glass. In the early days of graphite I do not think that you could do anything to the design that would compensate for the very low tensile strength.