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Epoxy vs Glue; Heat Deterioration
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: May 05, 2022 06:48PM

Does anyone know if single-part TiteBond GLUE softens / weakens with heat as does 2-part Rod Bond EPOXY (and virtually all epoxies)? I am referring to both after they have FULLY dried / cured. Case-in-point, I book-matched the grain of this hardwood (don’t know if it qualifies as “exotic”) that I acquired, split lengthwise along the 6in to be grip. I inserted a .375in mandrel, chucked it into my lathe with a live center on the other end and turned in standard fashion. Everything looked fine after turning and so started sanding; 150, 240, 320, 400, 600. While admiring how nice the sanded finish was, I noticed one of the epoxy joints was a few thousanths wider than before with sanding dust down in the “crack”. I certainly did not think (admittedly even consider) that I was heating-up the grip too much with the sanding procedure, but obviously sanding does generate heat. I prefer a catalyzed bond such as epoxy for applications with limited air exposure where glues can be restricted while trying to dry / evaporate.
This is my first failure with Rod Bond but I CERTAINLY DO NOT BLAME THE PRODUCT!!! And yes, it was mixed properly = the leftover in the cup was set-up fine. But I did add a half-drop of brown pigment (with which I have had no issues in the past).
Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions? Methods? OK, even opinions? lol.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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Re: Epoxy vs Glue; Heat Deterioration
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 05, 2022 09:42PM

Mark,
I have tried the original Gorilla glue and TiteBond to glue up cork rings. Never had an issue with them separating while turning. Now I use Flex Coat rod builder epoxy with about a 15 minute set time. I did not like the Gorilla Glue because it foams up too much and the TiteBond because I, like you, don't trust it will completely set or that it is as waterproof as two part epoxy. The thing that I turn that gets the hottest is rubberized cork, I turn it very thin removing about 70% of the outer diameter. I have not had any issues with separation with the Flex Coat rod builders epoxy. I don't turn wood inserts so that very well could be the difference. I also don't do it because I mainly build saltwater fly rods and like a particular type of seat that does not have a wood insert. I actually have a bunch of freshwater reel seat that already have the exotic wood inserts. Let me know what you find out because I have been wanting to turn some special inserts with mixed woods. It sounds like the wood you were using was very dense, taking more friction to turn and heating up more. Have you ever turned that before? Did it feel hotter than normal?

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Re: Epoxy vs Glue; Heat Deterioration
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: May 05, 2022 10:21PM

Lance,
Thank you for your reply, it is very much appreciated.
While your point(s) are well-taken, I am confident (blind faith?) that all the 2-part epoxies designed for rod building are ultimately quite similar = only variations on the same theme. That said, they could indeed be different, but I cannot imagine to a large extent. The epoxies used in rod building are considered “low temp” = <150*F. I have been a proponent of “post-curing” epoxies numerous times on this site but to be honest, I did not with this hardwood grip; but I certainly WILL from now on!!!
Hopefully others will respond with how heat-sensitive 1-part glues like Tite Bond are. I suspect that ANY bonding material, glue or epoxy, is sensitive and will succumb to heat = heat, UV and saltwater KILLS EVERYTHING!!! It’s not nice to fool Mother Nature.
That said, I still do not think I overheated the wood grip while sanding; but it is possible. Nonetheless, something went wrong. The grip is not junk = I can save it, but I would like to avoid having to do so in the future. As always, I am here to learn.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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Re: Epoxy vs Glue; Heat Deterioration
Posted by: Daniel Grundvig (---)
Date: May 05, 2022 10:41PM

Lance, you didn't mention which hardwood was used in the handle construction. Many hardwoods are oily or acidic and epoxy doesn't bond well. Wiping the surface with a solvent prior to gluing is frequently required. This website provides further information: [www.wood-database.com]

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Re: Epoxy vs Glue; Heat Deterioration
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: May 06, 2022 12:52AM

Daniel,
Thank you for your reply and link as well. Such parallels the V-22, I-1 of RodMaker magazine’s article on “Resinous Wood Bath” although that article dealt more with “finishing” rather than “bonding”; but the same parameters would apply to both. Admittedly, I did not “wash my wood” prior to bonding and in retrospect, maybe I should have. Your observation may be the key to my woes. But that still does not answer why the epoxy joint expanded with “minimal?” heat from sanding. Once again Daniel, thanks for your input, it is valuable, and is cause for me to rethink.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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Re: Epoxy vs Glue; Heat Deterioration
Posted by: Phil Erickson (---)
Date: May 06, 2022 01:11AM

Mark, I use Titebond lll on all my wood grips and have for many years. I have never had an issue with heat affecting joints, and I turn and sand quite fast, generating considerable heat. One factor with using Titebond is to be sure it has cured (dried) which can be a couple of days on large inside seams. I use a large number of exotic woods for custom grips, and have never needed to do anything with the mating surfaces.

As well as rod grips, I use Titebond, for all my glue-ups in turning wood bowls, some of which have multiple seam. Never an issue.

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Re: Epoxy vs Glue; Heat Deterioration
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: May 06, 2022 07:50AM

Mark,
From another source:

"What temperature does Titebond glue melt?
Thanks to this capability, the adhesive holds strong even when exposed to sunlight. We have also found out, that the glue starts to melt in temperatures above 120 °C or 248F, therefore the bond can be dismantled without any damage to the wood."

-------------------------
So, yes, enough heat will allow titebond glue to melt and separate. But that temperature is 248f.

Best wishes

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Re: Epoxy vs Glue; Heat Deterioration
Posted by: Mark Talmo (71.147.59.---)
Date: May 06, 2022 04:04PM

Phil,
Thanks for your information.
Roger,
Thanks for your research and information as well. I cannot imagine my sanding generating 250*F. But it is good to know that a TiteBond glue joint can be disassembled with heat, similar to epoxy as I suspected.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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Re: Epoxy vs Glue; Heat Deterioration
Posted by: Donald La Mar (---)
Date: May 07, 2022 08:53AM

Mark

I don't know about wood, but have used TiteBond III with cork and wood barks (pine and birch) for years. My experience has been no failures PROVIDED the TiteBond III was fully cured before shaping the grip. I glue up grips on a mandrel, remove the mandrel after 24 hours in the cork press, and wait another 24 hours before shaping the grip using sandpapers. If I added something to color the TiteBond III (Rite Dye, marbling dust, marbling pigments, etc.) I wait an additional 24 or 48 hours before shaping and boring to size as my experience has been that the addition of various coloring agents significantly slows the TiteBond III cure / dry process.

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Re: Epoxy vs Glue; Heat Deterioration
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: May 07, 2022 03:32PM

Thanks, Donald.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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