I'm 99% spinning so that's basically all I've ever built. So I apologize in advance if this question is too basic for those of you baitcasting rod pros.

Been intending to build a BFS (bait finesse system) rod at about 5 1/2 feet long, and UL in power using a spiral (acid) wrap.

I'm curious about the distance of the butt (1st) guide to the reel. Since the line is already going through an aperture at the reel SMALLER than the first guide, is there really much difference whether that guide is further or closer to the reel? And why not use a guide with an aperture as small as the one on the reel? With a spinning reel, distance and guide size makes a difference as the line is spiraling out in a cone but the baitcasting reel has the line already constrained to a very small aperture at the front of the reel.

Thanks for any insight.

Mo,
As with any rod, you don't need a guide if the line is under control.

So, if you want to put the first guide at 24 inches from the reel - go for it.
If you want to make the first guide a size 3, go for it. However, I would generally start with a size 8 and a distance of about 15 inches from the face of the spool.

But, there is not much reason to have any more than one or maybe two guides that are a bit larger than your running guides.

If you are wrapping the guides around the rod, the 2nd and 3rd guides should be really short. They are really only used to keep the line from rubbing against the rod blank, so they don't need to be at all tall.

Best wishes.

Just thinking out loud here. Just as spinning rods need proper height guides to work optimally, so do casting rods. Personally, because of the light weights thrown with BFS casting rods, I would say that proper guide heights, sizes, and layout, would be just as important as it is with spinning gear when it comes to casting performance.

Spinning reels don't backlash when line starts stacking behind a guide. Casting reels do. Personally, I'm not really one to experiment a lot, so I would build it more or less like any other casting rod as far as butt guide height and size. I have 2 5 1/2' pistol grip casting rods. The butt guides are 16" in front of the face of the reel. Both have KW 10's as the butt guide.

Thanks Roger.

I see. So the distance from reel to 1st guide is not as critical as with a spinning outfit.

As to 2nd and 3rd, I was planning to use size Fujis. That's the smallest they make I think.

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David, for some reason, did not see your reply. Maybe we posted simultaneously. Thanks for your observation. That actually does make sense - in the sense that even a small bit of extra friction could be the difference between a tangle or not- unlike a spinning reel. Good point.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2022 11:27PM by Mo Yang.

The butt guide is critical on a bait casting rod at least in some manner - the placement and height of the guide can determine if the line gets down onto the blank or fore grip (if you rod utilizes one) while you're fighting a fish. Guide height is a combination of the frame height and the ring size. The larger the ring, the higher the frame will typically be.

Just something you may wish to consider when selecting the guide and the placement.

...........

I’ve built several finesse baitcasters and own a couple of good factory ones. I have cast them many thousands of times and started doing this when only “gray market” finesse reels we’re available in the USA. Kent has rightfully questioned my sanity over my JDM reel habit, but now great domestic market choices exist. Most of these rods measure about 20.5 inches from the level-wind guide to the stripper/butt/first guide, and they cast really well. Unless you are going with a moderate or slower rod, a static test isn’t probably going to tell you much of a story in regards to the best spot within the 19-21 interval that is very common for baitcasters. My caveat is that the shortest one I own is 6’6”. Tom’s advice on ring heights is really important. Gary Loomis, or one of his people, missed this on one of my factory rods built during his tenure. We can give Tom a “plus one” score on him, here. The RV6 is the only finesse baitcasting guide I currently use. I’ll use some SeaGuide offerings for heavier rods, but that small, high framed RV6 is magic for the lights.

Nice to know that newcomers like TomK can get a "plus one" score!

Thank you everyone - Tom for your note on the right height. I've not thought about that. Kendall for your confirmation.

I'll be using Fuji Ti Torzites BFS set. Their butt guides is the T-RVTG6 - so that is a size 6 Torzite. Granted, Torzites are very thin compared to the Fuji SIC so it is more like a size 7 SIC. Interestingly, I am building on the same blank as a factory completed rod and just compared. the factory ring looks like a 10, BUT the Fuji 6's ring bottom is significantly higher than the factory 10. So I am assuming that height is a non-issue. In that set, their next guide is size 5 but a lot lower. I was tempted to use that 5 as my butt guide but given your comments about guide heights, I won't.

I did wonder if a spiral wrap where the line points downwards past the first butt guide that I would actually be better off doing a low guide to reduce the change in line angle.

Also, given that I am ONLY using 2 lbs mono with this, I was tempted to just use a single foot ultralight spinning guide size 5 or 6 high frame as the height is tall enough. Again, Ti Torzites. Think this could work or am I nuts...? Probably nuts.

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David, for some reason, did not see your reply. Maybe we posted simultaneously. Thanks for your observation. That actually does make sense - in the sense that even a small bit of extra friction could be the difference between a backlash or not - unlike a spinning reel. Good point.

Mo,

I admit, I haven't thoroughly read the thread, so I apologize for repeat info. While I don't typically dabble too much in the realm of BFS rods and reels, I'm a fan of lighter powered casting rods (They're the reason I started building).

As you have mentioned, the line passes through something like a 4mm guide when leaving the reel. There really is no need to use a larger guide on the rod, that said with a smaller ring due to not having 4mm guides at a variety of heights, you need to be a bit more judicious in where you place the guide.

When laying out a casting rod, I rely on the static test to place my guides. I start at the tip and work my way back with no preconceived notion as to where the butt guide should be placed. For spiral wraps, I start with the rod upside-down and place the four running guides closest to the tip so that the line just touches the blank between each pair of guides when using 4mm or smaller running guides with 5mm+ running guides I will keep the line off the blank. I will progressively load the blank by hand during this step and tweak the locations of the guides just a bit as each guide is added. Around that 3rd to 4th guide back is where most high sticking failures will occur, so I make sure the tip section in particular satisfies me when placing guides. Next I flip the rod upright and continue working back. I use a slow spiral, so I want a nice transition from the butt guide to the bottom of the rod. I'll place guides accordingly keeping an eye on the line path looking for any angles that look too sharp. Once I get back the the butt guide, I treat it just like any other guide. At this point my blank will be deflected to 90 degrees, and the same criteria I use to place any other pair of guides applies to the level wind guide and the butt guide. When I use a typical double foot 6mm guide, I typically land around 21.5" give or take a bit from the level wind. When I use a 4mm guide, it might be around 23" or 24", taller guides land closer to the reel. Given the use of an UL blank, I would not be surprised to see those numbers creep back toward the reel a bit due to the blank flexing so deeply.

The moral of the story is to rely on your static test. Believe it or not, it will get the guide in the right ball park. If the guide is placed in the right ball park, your rod will perform just fine. Putting a guide too close for its height will cause problems. I will also note that my rods typically do not have a fore grip, and I would not expect a BFS rod to have one beyond a decorative nub, so the guide height in your instance will likely be of little consequence.

Why spiral such low power rods.?

Thanks Joe for the extensive insight. I'll take that into account. I'll actually test that low size 5 as the butt guide and do a static text to see if the line does not rub. The opening at the rell is very small - smaller than 5.

Ben - why not? Spiral just always made sense to me given that it does not reduce casting distance. Spiral orients the rod naturally when under load while traditional placement would try to get the rod to turn 'upside down.' Granted, with 2 lbs test (breaking at 4), there's not a lot of torque to turn the rod upside down. Even so....are there any reasons NOT to do Spiral wrap?

Mo,
Why not spiral wrap?

Simple.

A lot of folks don't like to fish with a rod that has guides that wrap around the rod.

I tend to be in that boat. Although I have built a lot of bait casters for others that are spiral wrapped, I just don't care for them.

I did build a couple of rods that I spiral wrapped, but after using each one about a month of heavy fishing, I decided that they were not for me, and I rewrapped the guides in a conventional layout.

But, if you do wish to spiral wrap your rod, by all means do so.

Take care

Spinning orieents the rod also and without a load,..I use spiral for heavier lines for pulling power.,two pounds line is not for pulling..lol..I guess I just don,t get the whole bfs thing..spinning is so effective...

Roger, may I know what you don't like about it - was there a performance negative of some kind, or is it just pure preference such as visual or that you don't like the line twisting around? I can use fewer guides with spiral...for starters. This is a moderate UL.

Ben, regarding BFS - I hear you. But want to try it. I know of guys who do it and just love the feel. They feel more connected to the fish for some reason. Also, no line twist. But the #1 reason is that BFS is much more accurate in lure placement for many in tight quarters such as brushy streams and rocky flows. If you have seen some of the Japanese YouTubers doing BFS ultralight, they have an elegance in casting that is mesmerizingly beautiful and precise, in a way that spinning does not achieve. That said, in wide-open large water, if there is a UL tournament, I'd say spinning would likely dominate. As an analogy, some may say that BFS is more like driving a stick and though electronic shifting has now overtaken manual shifting on the race track, many driving enthusiasts still covet manual stick shift. I think BFS may be a bit of that too.

I don't have data but judging by the proliferation of new models being produced, BFS is growing quickly. So I want to explore it.

For someone like myself that just enjoys pushing for as lightweight as possible, you can get a top-end BFS reel down to something like 4.3 ounces and has considerable power to tangle with larger fish. This is not a pro for BFS but is still intriguing to me.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2022 06:58PM by Mo Yang.

Sounds interesting..thanks Mom..

Wecome Son. :) :) ;)


ben belote Wrote:
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> Sounds interesting..thanks Mom..

Ha, sorry Mo..I don,t know where that extra m came from..

Of course, I realize that. I do that all the time. Just having some fun...:) LOL!

Ben, not sure if I can link youtube videos here.

here's an example. Casting starts at 3:30. He gets into impossibly tight places UNDER branches that I cannot regularly do with my spinning rig. It is likely that I don't have the same skill as some but this is an example of why small stream fisherman like BFS.

[www.youtube.com]

Thanks Mo..I enjoyed the videos..mountain streams are a young person sport..is that the kind of fishing you do? Very scenic..the rods and their flex were interesting..they behave like solid fiberglass ice fishing rods...do you know..thanks again..