Okay so I'm on to what I believe is the final piece of the puzzle. I have my Rod Blanks selected.

Going with the [rodgeeks.com] for my jerk bait rod and [rodgeeks.com] for my skipping rod
I know this doesn't make a difference, but for the jerk bait rod I'm going with a Ohio State/Classic car style the entire rod being Red Metallic with silver metallic thread. For the flipping Rod I'm using my old high school colors of purple, white, black and using a Lavender Metallic. Now I'm choosing that because RodGeeks purple metallic that I only have a website example of looks a little to dark, unless somebody can show me otherwise. I will also be using the silver metallic thread on this rod as well. I feel like contrasting colors will really make the rods pop.

Now I've always known Fuji to be the gold standard in Rod Components, but I am new to Rod building, so I might be completely wrong in that statement. I want real small rod guides, but not so small as what you'd find on say a Duckett Micro Magic. I know brand/retail name rods don't mean a whole lot on here. Best description I can provide is they are a single foot style guide with the diameter being just a little larger the diameter of the line itself.

With the Jerk Bait rod, I want guides and a tip that will stand up to the abuse of braid but something that isn't going to add a lot of weight because the technique can be tire some.
With the Skipping Rod, I want guides and a tip that are smooth as silk that will allow the floral carbon to flow through them unhindered, allowing the only possibility of error or backlash to be my skill/thumb control on the spool.

With regards to reel seats, I have only ever had what's probably called Graphite or as I call it, plastic reel seats. The more I can feel the rod blank the better. That being said, I am looking at something like the CRB Graphite Casting Seat, CRB Skeleton Casting Seat CXO, Fuji SKTPSM Split Casting Reel Seat, VIBE2 G2 Graphite Split Reel Seat - Casting, and so on. However, given the techniques I am using for these 2 rods and the fact that I'm not looking for feel as much as I would with say a flipping and pitching or finesse fishing, my hands might appreciate more of a covered blank style reel seat. Either way I want it to be light. So I'm open to all suggestions and materials such as Carbon Fiber or Aluminum.

For the hand grips and butt, I am looking at the Composite Cork. I am not a big fan of straight cork. It just might be the cheap stuff they use and retail made rods or the look. However my Okuma TCS rods based on the description and pictures on mud holes website has what appears to be Composite Cork. I like both the weight and feel of this handle grip. I am not familiar with or have ever used EVA and Foam, so I can't express my feelings on those. As for the the Winn Grips. I have 1 rod with this style and I don't dislike it. It is very comfortable, especially as a crank bait rod. But I do wonder how much of weight difference there is between this style and cork or composite cork.

Once again I am looking for the input of the experience rod builders in this forum. I have greatly appreciated all of the input I have received thus far. I am getting down to the nitty gritty and I am very much looking forward to getting started on my first rod builds.

Thank You

Tony,

There are many excellent guides in the market today, almost any of which will handle braided lines. I personally like the American Tackle Microwave 25's for spinning rods and either the American Tackle Virtus Light series or the Vortex Air (no ceramic ring) guides for my baitcasting rods. You can't go wrong with them, and they will stand up to the rigors hard fishing.

Rich

Sounds like you have some bases covered. In rod building there is not necessarily a gold standard and we all have our differences in preference. The following would be my preferences.

Jerkbait rod:
Thread) I prefer not to make guide wraps with metallic thread. If it were me I would do metallic silver trims and accents with white main wraps for Ohio State. Again, just my preference.

Guides) It is hard to go wrong these days since braid is now so prevalent. I would Use Fuji K-series. If fishing straight line or you can tie really nice leader knots I would go KW 8, KB 6, KT 4 runners. LG tip top to match. On a $180 blank I would choose some higher quality guides. CRB elites and the likes are decent but not something I would put on something like this personally.

Reel Seat) For feel I like the seats with an open blank design. The Fuji SKT can be difficult but if you take your time and think it out it is great. Others that aren't split like the Fuji ACS, CRB GEC3, Pac Bay exposed etc. are great as well. I personally love touching the blank as much as possible. If you really want to try something new and exciting the American Tackle HCC are on my short list.

Grip) I prefer the hybrid synthetic cork offerings compared to cork when unfinished. Full cork with U-40 cork sealer is really incredible as well. Lately I have fallen in love with the NFC soft touch carbon grips though.

Skipping rod:
If I remember correctly this will be a casting setup as well. If this is the case then pretty much all the same as above. Depending on line size and what you are comfortable with some changes to guide sizes may be necessary. If you prefer two double foot guides than you can make that adjustment as well.

As always I will preach the static guide placement.
[www.rodbuilding.org]

I can't wait to hear how the builds turnout.

A.P.

"I want real small rod guides, but not so small as what you'd find on say a Duckett Micro Magic. I know brand/retail name rods don't mean a whole lot on here. Best description I can provide is they are a single foot style guide with the diameter being just a little larger the diameter of the line itself." This comment is in conflict with itself. Keep in mind that a 20 pound leader is about .020 inch diameter.

The proposal for 4 mm running guides may require a special knot (FG or Alberto or similar) if braid with a leader is planned, depending on leader pound test. There is no need to go that small and guides of 5.5 - 6 mm would make sense and pass any reasonable knot easily.

With such high end blanks, go with high end components. For guides I would use Fuji titanium KR guides (Sic or Torzite) with an RV6 butt guide, and size 4.5 KB/KT running guides, with a KG tip top. I also like the CFX and NFC carbon fiber split grips especially the NFC soft touch CF grips. If you wish, you can use the American Tackle G2 aluminum winding checks, and butt cap with the NFC soft touch casting grips, instead of the eve foam ones that are included. The carbon fiber grips are less expensive than making cork grips, and are basically bullet proof. Cork has become very expensive recently, I just bought a 100 cork rings of good quality, but not the best, and they cost me over $300. As far as reel seats I’ve tried most of them and keep coming back to the Fuji ECM or the the PacBay Minima casting split seat. RodGeeks and Matagi do offer painted reel seats that would match your blank, if you wanted to go that route. However, there are a lot of seats out there to choose from, so pick one that feels good in your hand. I’m also not a fan of metallic thread as the main wrap, I use metallic thread solely for trim wraps. However, thread wraps are a matter of personal choice, so do what you like.
Norm

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Paraphrasing Norm to reduce size.

> For guides I would use Fuji titanium
> KR guides (Sic or Torzite) with an RV6 butt guide,
> and size 4.5 KB/KT running guides, with a KG tip
> top.
> Norm

What is your thoughts on comparison between the RV vs KW as a butt guide? Is it the height allowing you to go with the #6? Just curious because I have never tried that guide and might give it a run.

Edit: Wanted to add KW #8 is 12.3mm RV #6 is 12.9mm

A.P.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2021 02:16PM by Aaron Petersen.

I use the RV6 all the time with braid, mono, and FC and the rods perform beautifully. I follow it with one size KB's and KT's to the end. I use size 4 on spin but up it to size 5.5 on cast. I think 4's will cause knot problems with the pound test leaders normally used on cast unless the FG or a good Alberto knot is used. I doubt if the double uni will clear cleanly with all leaders. If no leader, then no knot and no problem.

Both the RV6 and the KW10 give the correct height of the bottom of ring above the blank to help prevent line slap. The total height of the guide is not so important. Both work very well, and both are recommend by Fuji for use as the butt guide for low profile reels. These butt guides are usually placed about 19” to 21” in front of the reel. The RV6 only comes in a titanium frame, but looks really cool because it gives a different non traditional custom look to the guide train. Something you’re not going to see on most store bought rods. If I use the KW10 I like to follow it with a KW5.5, which in turn is followed by the KB/KT runners. If using an RV6, I follow it with a KB guide. For casting rods I usually use 2 or 3 KBs, with the rest of the runners being KTs.
Norm

If you decide to go with a KW instead of the RV-6 as the butt guide, the one to use is the KW-10. The bottom of the 10 ring is the same height as the RV ring. I know the KW-8 matches the RV in overall height, but it's the ring height in the frame that matters. (and I thank Norm for that bit of knowledge) By the way, the Ducketts use true micros. The 4.5 KB-KT's are still very small but the rings have a large I.D. in comparison to true micros. Use lock wraps. Proceed slowly and carefully. (Once again I failed to read the above post before making my own lol, so you get to read it twice.)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2021 05:21PM by Lynn Behler.

Fuji K guides. The 4mm will allow a FG knot to pass without any issues.
Fuji’s PTS reel seats
I also have fallen in love with NFC soft touch grips.

Your St. Croix blank choices seem like a good ones. I just got an order from Rod Geeks that was very nicely built. I didn’t have painting done so I can’t vouch for that service. I usually use either Fuji or SeaGuide for guides. Both have been very reliable for me. I’m comfortable with the materials both companies use and their quality and design. I also think that their respective materials and descriptions versus their pricing can be readily evaluated for value. For the Fuji choice, I like the TRVTG6 (RV6 in titanium/Torzite) option the best, and by a very wide margin. I follow that guide with the TRLRVTG6 on medium-heavy and beyond rods and go straight to the single footed belly guides on lighter rods.

I like the quality, reliability, and value of the entire Batson lineup family and use their components and blanks some. With their Alps guides, though, I found over a couple of tries that their coding and specifications were less than user friendly for putting together a coherent guide train. I became satisfied with these other two brands and just haven’t returned to trying Alps guides for freshwater builds. They now feature “build recipes” for their blanks. I also have a Mudhole LZR train that has been reliable in freshwater.

I try to match a very lightweight, sensitive blank with guides of similar parameters. Every SCV or PB blank I build on gets titanium guides from Fuji or SeaGuide and carbon reel seats. I really like the SeaGuide carbon reel seat options. I happily spend much less on other blanks when they aren’t going to be used a lot. I do the same when a technique won’t benefit a lot from challenging gravity and having ultimate sensitivity. I also reduce my component costs when I reduce my blank cost. Batson is shaking my thoughts here a little, though. I’m looking at their dropshot version of the RX10 Eternity. It’s just crazy light for it’s price. I trust them when they say their team had no failures during extensive testing of the new Eternity series. I might have to fudge a bit towards pricier components when I build on this blank.

The Fuji PTS reel seat is my choice when I go down in price from the SeaGuide carbon offerings. The American Tackle single-footed in TiCH finish is my go to for hook keepers. It goes well with Torzite trains and is very functional. I really like the extreme lightness, look, and feel of CFX carbon sleeved grips. The SeaGuide cork options are good for cost savings uses. I have a lathe but am so happy with CFX offerings that I don’t use it for custom grips much, anymore. I tried the G2, full carbon grips, and don’t like the feel and security during casting. It’s personal preference, though.

I find that size 5.0 running guides and tip-tops are small, light, and still pass all of my knots and stops. I was actually trying to do a 4.5 size train when I did my first 5.0 train, but the tip-top was out of stock. The resulting 5.0 setup worked so darn well in every parameter that I’ve stayed with it. Michael recommended a 5.5 which is within the same side of the same infield. I’ve never lost a size 5.0 off of a rod, and I’ve used them for fish and line weights far above their rating. I haven’t had a braided line wind knot really test one. I also think the extra clearance this size (or the not worth quibbling over 5.5) provides over micro-guides makes sense on rods not spiral wrapped.

As always, thank you for all the input. I am running into a few hiccups with the suggestions I have received and I'm sure it's related to a couple things. My lack of knowledge and not being familiar with the acronyms you guys are using, and finally. Not knowing specifically where you are getting some of these components. I will admit I am attempting to due most of my component shopping on Mudhole because, to be honest, there site frankly the easiest to navigate. With that being said. Let me go ahead and state where I'm confused and hopefully I can get the blanks filled in.

Going to start with guides. Assumptions can often get you in trouble, so I want to make sure I am clear on some items.
Guides - I am looking at the [mudhole.com] guides.
Fuji K-Series Double-Foot Casting & Spinning Guides Model KW - Torzite
I am not finding a kit or package option for these, so I'm assuming I am going to need to order these individually.

When I am seeing you guys type KW-# or RV=#. I'm assuming the # is referring to the size of the guide.
Meaning on the guides I am likely to go with, I'm looking at KW-T-10 for the butt guide which is followed by another assumption. butt guide refers to the last/first guide located closest to the butt end/real seat of the Rod.

From there, the corresponding guides would be KW-T-5 or KW-T-5.5

Finally ending at the tip with
[mudhole.com]
Which I'm guessing would be the same size as the majority of my guides or the next size down.

Beginning to think I should of separated my components as Seat and Grips looks to be a whole other topic in that of itself.
As much as I want to do a 2 part reel seat, my lack of experience and knowledge seems safer with a 1 piece seat to start with.

Which puts me at the Fuji PMTS Micro-Trigger Casting Seat or CRB Nub Trigger Casting Seat NTR. I don't like large triggers and if possible, I'd go with no trigger at all like you finding on spinning reels.
However, I don't know what it is about this reel seat on rodbuilderswarehouse.com. Which I have to take a small jab at the name. They call themselves American Rodbuilders Warehouse but only carry 1 brand. Seaguide.
At any rate, the Seaguide HSC™ Carbon Fiber Casting Reel Seat XCSSHSC reel seat. I don't exactly know why. But I am just in love with this reel seat. Never seen or used one, but something about this reel seat just grabs my attention.
Does anybody have experience with this reel seat and do you like it?

So I'm not sure on any of these as to what size to order. I have seen some using masking tap to make arbors to properly fit and secure the reel seat to the blank. Is this something that I should wait till I get my blanks and take a set of calipers to measure and order the correct size or is it better practice to order a slight larger size and use arbors to get that proper fit?

For the grips I am looking at the FSG387 Casting Grip form CRB paired with the SGFBE Butt Grip and FG125 Foregrip
Which there calling an EVA Composite. Closet thing I could find in a Composite Cork. I just can't get over the look for Carbon Fiber grips. Which is odd because I typically like the look and feel of Carbon Fiber on a lot of things, but grips isn't one of them.

Finally I'd like to polish the whole thing off with some Winding Checks. Again to add just a flair to the rod. Maybe even just use one as a replace/instead of the foregrip.

The K in Fuji guides designates that they have a tangle free design. In other words, the forward sloping ring and the frame design of these guides help to shed line loops preventing tangles. When we say KR concept, we are talking about a guide train layout that was designed for using micro guides. If you want to use a Fuji KR guide concept using Titanium frames and Torzite rings on both of your rods you will need to order the following guides for each rod. One TKWTG-10, one TKWTG-5.5, two TKBTG-5, and five or six TKTTG-5. The KB and KT guides are considered running guides and are all the same size. KB are called a belly guides and have a wider and longer foot and are used in the midsection of the rod to help counter act the strong torsional forces generated when the rod is fully flex. The KT guides are called tip guides and have a smaller foot. They are used in the tip section of the rod where torsional forces are much less. If you want larger runners you could use a size 5.5, and if you want smaller runners you can use size 4.5 or 4 (for comparison purposes, the micro runners on a Duckett rod are about a size 3). For both of your rods I would nine or ten guides total depending on the static test ( [www.rodbuilding.org] ). Since both of your rods have a size 4.5 (4.5 / 64”) tip diameter, you can order a TKGTT-5-4.5 (ring size 5 - tube size 4.5) for each rod. Again, depending on the ring size of the runners, you can choose a smaller or larger ring size. Hope this helps with your understanding of the guides being used.
If you like the SeaGuide HSC reel seat then try one. It should be mentioned that this reel seat will require a carbon fiber insert, and a shim in order to fit the blank. [rodbuilderswarehouse.com] The insert gives a nice custom look to the seat. If you need more information, just ask.
Norm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2021 12:07PM by Norman Miller.

Thanks for the heads up Norman,

I have a few followup questions.

First one being the "guide train layout that was designed for using micro guides"

Do you have a book, video tutorial, or even a wiki link that explains that. I greatly appreciate the breakdown for no other reason than you probably just saved me quite a bit of money.
I'm really loving the help on this site, but as a goal. I would like to learn this were I can do this on my own. I hope nobody on here takes offense to that. But I like to be self sufficient.

Second question is on the SeaGuide HSC reel seat. It didn't see any mention in the description, so how and why do I need the Carbon Fiber Insert and what and where do I find the shim I would need? I've see mentions of Winds, Arbors, and Inserts, but haven't seen anything related to shims yet.

Finally I have just a general question. Is it possible to completely breakdown a factory Rod to it's blank state and rebuild it from ground up. I know it's possible to replace damaged or broken guides, but my curiosity is getting the better of me at the moments and wondering just how far I can break down a completed rod.

MicroWave guides will handle the braid very well and they come as a set which makes it easy to order and start building, plus they come with a guide placement chart, if needed. If you want to decrease weight and increase sensitivity I would recommend one of the American Tackle CCT seats. I have built many rods with MicroWaves and CCT seats and they fish great. I have quite of few personal builds set up this way as well. For handles, I would make my own out of cork or use the G2 Carbon Handles from AT.

You can certainly strip any rod right down to the blank and rebuild it. I have done this numerous times. Takes a little elbow grease, but sort of fun to do, and you certainly learn a lot on how a rod is put together. If the rod was painted it almost always requires you to strip/scrape off the old finish right down to the bare graphite. This has been subject of a lot posts, and you can certainly do a search here and find a lot of information dealing with stripping down and rebuilding a rod.
Here is a video from Anglers Resource that explains the KR concept for both spinning and casting rods. The casting rod concept is in second half of the video. [m.youtube.com] The guide layout for a KR casting rod is pretty straight forward and easy to do. The butt/ stripper guide will be about 19 to 21” in front of the reel, and either a KW10 or RV6 guide is used. I usually place the first running guide about 9 to 10 cm away from the tip top, and the rest of the guides are placed progressively between these two guides. I like to use the metric system for placing guides, mKes it a lot easier than using fraction of inches. Their final position will be determined using the two line static test, which I linked to in my previous post. When using micro guides, you normal use a few more guides per rod then when using larger guides. For your rods 9 to 10 total guides should be sufficient.
The SeaGuide HSC reel seat has cutouts, but the reel seat is not sold with various IDs to fit a blank, therefore a carbon fiber insert is required in order to fit it to the blank. SeaGuide does sell a foam arbor (shim) to fit the carbon fiber insert, and you should buy both. The foam arbor is glued inside the carbon fiber insert, and the carbon fiber insert is then glued into the reel seat. When everything is cured, you ream the reel seat to fit your blank. A number of other high end reel seats from other companies also require a CF insert. So the use of a reel seat insert is becoming quite common.
Norm

You would be doing yourself a favor to take a look at the Alps MVT casting reel seat as well. It's a beautiful seat that you order to fit the blank. The seat is sized at the the end of the thread barrel, so to order, you need to know where the end of the thread barrel will be on the blank, once the seat is installed. They come with a woven graphite insert already installed in the reel seat, They're fairly easy to ream as well, so if you're in doubt of the size you need, you can order the next smaller size and ream to fit. I will say that the larger IDs do not come with the woven graphite insert. They would fit directly to the blank.

It's a very comfortable seat to fish with as well. I like them so much that they're now the only casting seat I use on my builds. Below is a picture of the MVT seat on one of my flipping and pitching rods. The build was in progress in that picture, None of the components were epoxied in place.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

American Tackle has a wide range of guides and reel seats that would work on your builds. The hardest part is finding one that fits in your hand comfortably. the best advice I can give you is go the your local big box store and test the rods they have on the rack. Most of those rods components are available to us rod builds you will just have to look around. I do like the American Tackle CCT reel seats and their G2 Vibes which comes in a split seat setup. For the guides like the airwave , microwave and their new vortex guides. These guide are tuff guides that withstand a lot of abuse.